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Lobbying is allowing people and interest groups to make their views known directly to lawmakers. This is democracy and free society in action, indeed. As long

Lobbying is allowing people and interest groups to make their views known directly to lawmakers. This is democracy and free society in action, indeed. As long as it is transparent there is nothing not to "like". That's why this ban in Amazon lobbyists is actually bad news but not surprising if you've been following how the EU has been evolving.

BillyTheMage 3y ago
I fail to see how letting the rich influence politicians is good. How is "we put a bunch of money together, now listen to us" good for democracy?
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Lobbying is not "the rich". It's large economic sectors that account for many jobs and economic activity. It is right that they be allowed to make their views and interests known in a transparent way. They will anyway as they have the resources and contacts, so we might as well have an official, transparent channel.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    > Lobbying is not "the rich". It's large economic sectors that account for many jobs and economic activity. It is right that they be allowed to make their views and interests known in a transparent way. They will anyway as they have the resources and contacts, so we might as well have an official, transparent channel. Corporations aren't citizens though. Politics exists to represent the people, not the corporations. They shouldn't have any influence over politics. The economy is not a goal on its own, it's only there for the benefit of the citizens. And they already have a really heavy influence in favour of their goals in terms of all their employees, shareholders etc who can vote. They already have adequate representation that way. We're not as bad as the US yet with all the heavy campaign contributions with strings attached, but we don't want to end up there either. So I'm very happy the huge multinationals get some pushback.
- arp242 3y ago
  Free Software Foundation Europe is a lobbying group: https://ec.europa.eu/transparencyregister/public/consultation/displaylobbyist.do?id=33882407107-76 https://ec.europa.eu/transparencyregister/public/consultatio... There are tons of (non-rich) lobbying groups like this, for things like climate action, labour rights, consumer rights, etc. Of course, it's probably correct that lobbying is probably skewed towards the rich. And maybe we need to correct for that. But then the question becomes "should we correct the influence of money in lobbying, and if so, how?"
piva00 3y ago
It's just very convenient that big corporations have money in their budget to massively spend on lobbyists while citizens' associations do not. > "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal loaves of bread."
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > convenient that big corporations have money in their budget to massively spend on lobbyists while citizens' associations do not I forgot about the impotence of Greenpeace, the NRA, the ACLU and EFF, of Susan B. Anthony.
  - piva00 3y ago
    Compared to literally every single corporation worth US$ 10b+? Yes, pretty impotent I'd say.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      Remind me of the last time corporations got a Constitutional amendment passed? Have you met a lawmaker, or been involved in the passage of a law? The state of civics education in America is such that a minority of folks understand the first rule of politics: showing up is half the battle. Unfortunately, pitching nihilism is a good way to keep the other side from bothering.
      - piva00 3y ago
        Why do you assume I live in the USA? No, I haven't been part of any legislation process in the USA because I do not live there. No need for Constitutional amendments when the healthcare and insurance industry in the USA (the biggest spenders in lobbying afaik) can lobby politicians to block legislation setting caps on drug prices paid by the government through ACA, or to keep the dysfunctional system of health insurance you live under. Let me know when citizens can spend some US$ 8-10b on lobbying for universal healthcare, just like the combined spending of healthcare + insurance industries... And just a quick edit: setting the NRA as an example of citizens' association lobbying is a bit tone deaf given what they do for the weapons industry, it's another very good case for how lobbying can be detrimental to society by hiding big corporations interests behind what is seemingly a citizens' association. Edit as a form of last reply since I got rate limited: You edited the comment to remove the sentence saying "state or federally" which implied to me you were talking about the USA. A bit of a dishonest response after such edit...

BillyTheMage 3y ago

I fail to see how letting the rich influence politicians is good. How is "we put a bunch of money together, now listen to us" good for democracy?

mytailorisrich 3y ago
Lobbying is not "the rich". It's large economic sectors that account for many jobs and economic activity. It is right that they be allowed to make their views and interests known in a transparent way. They will anyway as they have the resources and contacts, so we might as well have an official, transparent channel.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  > Lobbying is not "the rich". It's large economic sectors that account for many jobs and economic activity. It is right that they be allowed to make their views and interests known in a transparent way. They will anyway as they have the resources and contacts, so we might as well have an official, transparent channel. Corporations aren't citizens though. Politics exists to represent the people, not the corporations. They shouldn't have any influence over politics. The economy is not a goal on its own, it's only there for the benefit of the citizens. And they already have a really heavy influence in favour of their goals in terms of all their employees, shareholders etc who can vote. They already have adequate representation that way. We're not as bad as the US yet with all the heavy campaign contributions with strings attached, but we don't want to end up there either. So I'm very happy the huge multinationals get some pushback.
arp242 3y ago
Free Software Foundation Europe is a lobbying group: https://ec.europa.eu/transparencyregister/public/consultation/displaylobbyist.do?id=33882407107-76 https://ec.europa.eu/transparencyregister/public/consultatio... There are tons of (non-rich) lobbying groups like this, for things like climate action, labour rights, consumer rights, etc. Of course, it's probably correct that lobbying is probably skewed towards the rich. And maybe we need to correct for that. But then the question becomes "should we correct the influence of money in lobbying, and if so, how?"

piva00 3y ago

It's just very convenient that big corporations have money in their budget to massively spend on lobbyists while citizens' associations do not. > "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal loaves of bread."

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> convenient that big corporations have money in their budget to massively spend on lobbyists while citizens' associations do not I forgot about the impotence of Greenpeace, the NRA, the ACLU and EFF, of Susan B. Anthony.
- piva00 3y ago
  Compared to literally every single corporation worth US$ 10b+? Yes, pretty impotent I'd say.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    Remind me of the last time corporations got a Constitutional amendment passed? Have you met a lawmaker, or been involved in the passage of a law? The state of civics education in America is such that a minority of folks understand the first rule of politics: showing up is half the battle. Unfortunately, pitching nihilism is a good way to keep the other side from bothering.
    - piva00 3y ago
      Why do you assume I live in the USA? No, I haven't been part of any legislation process in the USA because I do not live there. No need for Constitutional amendments when the healthcare and insurance industry in the USA (the biggest spenders in lobbying afaik) can lobby politicians to block legislation setting caps on drug prices paid by the government through ACA, or to keep the dysfunctional system of health insurance you live under. Let me know when citizens can spend some US$ 8-10b on lobbying for universal healthcare, just like the combined spending of healthcare + insurance industries... And just a quick edit: setting the NRA as an example of citizens' association lobbying is a bit tone deaf given what they do for the weapons industry, it's another very good case for how lobbying can be detrimental to society by hiding big corporations interests behind what is seemingly a citizens' association. Edit as a form of last reply since I got rate limited: You edited the comment to remove the sentence saying "state or federally" which implied to me you were talking about the USA. A bit of a dishonest response after such edit...