4 ms·

I don't hate him, I simply find his views on most (?) topics reprehensible, naive and/or delusional. I think he's doing great harm to his businesses by oversha

I don't hate him, I simply find his views on most (?) topics reprehensible, naive and/or delusional. I think he's doing great harm to his businesses by oversharing them. I particularly despise his pathetic bothsidesing of the war in which fascists are invading and murdering my relatives in my country of birth.

TMWNN 3y ago
> I particularly despise his pathetic bothsidesing of the war in which fascists are invading and murdering my relatives in my country of birth. As a Ukrainian you ought to be on your knees thanking God that Musk was born. Starlink is that vital to Ukraine, and he had zero obligation to provide it (let alone for free) when the Ukrainian government asked for his help early in the war. The US-funded Starlink subscriptions and Starshield have only increased the value Musk's enterprise provides to Ukraine, of course, but it all began for free. Let me repeat: Zero obligation. Musk is not Ukrainian. The United States is, contrary to what many subreddits' denizens seem to believe, not actually at war with Russia. Ukraine is not a member of NATO or EU. He can say whatever he wants whenever he wants about anything thanks to freedoms that exist in the US but not in Russia (or Ukraine), and Musk is a lot more entitled to do so than you or me or every bleater on Reddit whose collective actions have saved fewer Ukrainian lives than the results of Musk's capital and innovation and risk-taking.
panick21_ 3y ago
Name any private individual who has done more for the defense of Ukraine then Musk. Suggesting that a civil war will end in a cease fire along battle lines is a very common way for civil wars to end. Even if during those wars both sides absolutely are convinced that they will have total victory.
- greedo 3y ago
  A civil war. Right. Completely displaying your ignorance of the region's history.
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    The history where for the last 400 years the were part of the same country and share close history for 2000 years and only a tiny amount of time they were fully separated. They speak essentially the same language (often the very same) and use the same national origin story and the Russian Orthodox Church was literally representing people from both sides of the border. There are tons of families and other connections over the boarder as well. During that time of separation the actual elites of the country treated the boarder between the two countries as essentially meaningless. The same group of oligarch took over in both countries for the most part and treaty the sovereignty and democracy as a joke. I think its totally fair to call it a civil war. You could call it other things as well that wouldn't be incorrect either. For historical context, the Austro-Prussian War is often called the German Civil War, or in German 'Deutsche Krieg' or 'Deutsche Bruderkrieg'. And those two countries were no where near as close historically as Russia/Ukraine. Its more like if England and Scotland fought each other, but they are both Anglican and English people believed they origin of the Angles/Saxons was in the Scottish highlands. After 250 years of British history, calling that a civil war would be totally reasonable.
    - greedo 3y ago
      Russian and Ukrainian have similar roots, but are not "essentially the same language." The "national origin story" (unless you mean the 1917 Revolution) is nothing like how the two countries were created. Mexico and the US have "tons of families and other connections over the (sic) boarder as well." The reason the elites treated the border between Ukraine and the Russian Federation as meaningless was because ex-Soviet cronies were running Ukraine to plunder its assets. Until the Maiden Revolution, these cronies were basically stooges controlled by Moscow. The current conflict (2014 to now) is nothing like a civil war. Moscow uses some proxy forces from the Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, but the majority of forces are from the Russian Federation. They control everything, supply all the equipment and determine goals and objectives. If you were to remove the Russian forces from these two oblasts (as well as Crimea and Zaporizhzhia) these proxy forces would collapse immediately. Oh and regarding England and Scotland, well, many Scots would like to leave the UK. That wouldn't be a civil war either, but an independence movement. A civil war would be the more like the Hundred Years war...
- bumby 3y ago
  It’s not a foregone conclusion that it is a good thing. Some strategists like Peter Zeihan think if Ukraine “wins” it will prompt a defensive nuclear exchange from Russia. In that case, history might look at Musk differently.
  - khokhol 3y ago
    While others think that if Ukraine makes "peace" with Russia it will simply set the stage for another invasion attempt and/or a nuclear exchange later.
  - lupusreal 3y ago
    The most likely "Ukraine wins" scenario is a frozen conflict (e.g. Korea) in which Ukrainians can feel relatively secure about their future albeit without regaining all of their prewar territory. In this scenario, a nuclear tantrum from Russia seems extremely unlikely. Rather, they would probably cope by claiming they won and the rest of Ukrainian territory was sour grapes anyway. Ukraine actually managing to retake all of their prewar territory might plausibly cause Russia to go totally insane and start nuking, but the way things are going it seems like a pipe dream for Ukraine to make that much progress. Maybe if some serious changes to the balance of force occurred, like a surprise admission of Ukraine to NATO, but this isn't very realistic. (Anything more than that, some sort of "Ukrainian forces in Moscow executing Putin for war crimes" is just pure fantasy. So no matter what happens, relative security is the best anybody can hope for.)
    - bumby 3y ago
      That's a different scenario. You're describing an effective stalemate and, in Zehain's opinion, the best possible outcome. If Ukraine were to "win," i.e., take back all their lost territory, Zehain feels they would have the opinion that the Ukrainian thought is that the only way to prevent Russia from regrouping and trying again is to take the fight into Russian territory. This would include logistical hubs like Belgorod and Rostov-on-Don. In that scenario, Russia, already losing the war, would feel a nuclear strike may be their best defensive option.
- khokhol 3y ago
  Name any private individual who has done more for the defense of Ukraine then Musk. Irrelevant to the fact he went on to also blatantly dick the Ukrainians over in late 2023.
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    Wow how grateful. In objective reality he helped Ukraine a huge amount and thus is clearly very pro Ukraine. Ukraine should literally be thanking him everyday. But I guess that is totally irrelevant. What have you done for me lately asshole. Frankly I think the way they treat him is ridiculous. A media discord based on bad and inaccurate information heavily biased reporting somehow making him out to be the bad guy. Ok got it. Makes total sense. War really makes people lose touch with reality.
- jltsiren 3y ago
  Except that this is not a civil war but an old-school war of conquest. If the war ends in a way that doesn't include Russia withdrawing behind the 1991 borders, it goes a long way towards restoring the pre-WW2 world order, where conquest is a legitimate reason to start a war.
- kspacewalk2 3y ago
  What "civil war" are you talking about? Was Hitler's invasion of Poland also a civil war and if so, what is a civil war in your mind?

TMWNN 3y ago

> I particularly despise his pathetic bothsidesing of the war in which fascists are invading and murdering my relatives in my country of birth. As a Ukrainian you ought to be on your knees thanking God that Musk was born. Starlink is that vital to Ukraine, and he had zero obligation to provide it (let alone for free) when the Ukrainian government asked for his help early in the war. The US-funded Starlink subscriptions and Starshield have only increased the value Musk's enterprise provides to Ukraine, of course, but it all began for free. Let me repeat: Zero obligation. Musk is not Ukrainian. The United States is, contrary to what many subreddits' denizens seem to believe, not actually at war with Russia. Ukraine is not a member of NATO or EU. He can say whatever he wants whenever he wants about anything thanks to freedoms that exist in the US but not in Russia (or Ukraine), and Musk is a lot more entitled to do so than you or me or every bleater on Reddit whose collective actions have saved fewer Ukrainian lives than the results of Musk's capital and innovation and risk-taking.

panick21_ 3y ago

Name any private individual who has done more for the defense of Ukraine then Musk. Suggesting that a civil war will end in a cease fire along battle lines is a very common way for civil wars to end. Even if during those wars both sides absolutely are convinced that they will have total victory.

greedo 3y ago
A civil war. Right. Completely displaying your ignorance of the region's history.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  The history where for the last 400 years the were part of the same country and share close history for 2000 years and only a tiny amount of time they were fully separated. They speak essentially the same language (often the very same) and use the same national origin story and the Russian Orthodox Church was literally representing people from both sides of the border. There are tons of families and other connections over the boarder as well. During that time of separation the actual elites of the country treated the boarder between the two countries as essentially meaningless. The same group of oligarch took over in both countries for the most part and treaty the sovereignty and democracy as a joke. I think its totally fair to call it a civil war. You could call it other things as well that wouldn't be incorrect either. For historical context, the Austro-Prussian War is often called the German Civil War, or in German 'Deutsche Krieg' or 'Deutsche Bruderkrieg'. And those two countries were no where near as close historically as Russia/Ukraine. Its more like if England and Scotland fought each other, but they are both Anglican and English people believed they origin of the Angles/Saxons was in the Scottish highlands. After 250 years of British history, calling that a civil war would be totally reasonable.
  - greedo 3y ago
    Russian and Ukrainian have similar roots, but are not "essentially the same language." The "national origin story" (unless you mean the 1917 Revolution) is nothing like how the two countries were created. Mexico and the US have "tons of families and other connections over the (sic) boarder as well." The reason the elites treated the border between Ukraine and the Russian Federation as meaningless was because ex-Soviet cronies were running Ukraine to plunder its assets. Until the Maiden Revolution, these cronies were basically stooges controlled by Moscow. The current conflict (2014 to now) is nothing like a civil war. Moscow uses some proxy forces from the Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, but the majority of forces are from the Russian Federation. They control everything, supply all the equipment and determine goals and objectives. If you were to remove the Russian forces from these two oblasts (as well as Crimea and Zaporizhzhia) these proxy forces would collapse immediately. Oh and regarding England and Scotland, well, many Scots would like to leave the UK. That wouldn't be a civil war either, but an independence movement. A civil war would be the more like the Hundred Years war...
bumby 3y ago
It’s not a foregone conclusion that it is a good thing. Some strategists like Peter Zeihan think if Ukraine “wins” it will prompt a defensive nuclear exchange from Russia. In that case, history might look at Musk differently.
- khokhol 3y ago
  While others think that if Ukraine makes "peace" with Russia it will simply set the stage for another invasion attempt and/or a nuclear exchange later.
- lupusreal 3y ago
  The most likely "Ukraine wins" scenario is a frozen conflict (e.g. Korea) in which Ukrainians can feel relatively secure about their future albeit without regaining all of their prewar territory. In this scenario, a nuclear tantrum from Russia seems extremely unlikely. Rather, they would probably cope by claiming they won and the rest of Ukrainian territory was sour grapes anyway. Ukraine actually managing to retake all of their prewar territory might plausibly cause Russia to go totally insane and start nuking, but the way things are going it seems like a pipe dream for Ukraine to make that much progress. Maybe if some serious changes to the balance of force occurred, like a surprise admission of Ukraine to NATO, but this isn't very realistic. (Anything more than that, some sort of "Ukrainian forces in Moscow executing Putin for war crimes" is just pure fantasy. So no matter what happens, relative security is the best anybody can hope for.)
  - bumby 3y ago
    That's a different scenario. You're describing an effective stalemate and, in Zehain's opinion, the best possible outcome. If Ukraine were to "win," i.e., take back all their lost territory, Zehain feels they would have the opinion that the Ukrainian thought is that the only way to prevent Russia from regrouping and trying again is to take the fight into Russian territory. This would include logistical hubs like Belgorod and Rostov-on-Don. In that scenario, Russia, already losing the war, would feel a nuclear strike may be their best defensive option.
khokhol 3y ago
Name any private individual who has done more for the defense of Ukraine then Musk. Irrelevant to the fact he went on to also blatantly dick the Ukrainians over in late 2023.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  Wow how grateful. In objective reality he helped Ukraine a huge amount and thus is clearly very pro Ukraine. Ukraine should literally be thanking him everyday. But I guess that is totally irrelevant. What have you done for me lately asshole. Frankly I think the way they treat him is ridiculous. A media discord based on bad and inaccurate information heavily biased reporting somehow making him out to be the bad guy. Ok got it. Makes total sense. War really makes people lose touch with reality.
jltsiren 3y ago
Except that this is not a civil war but an old-school war of conquest. If the war ends in a way that doesn't include Russia withdrawing behind the 1991 borders, it goes a long way towards restoring the pre-WW2 world order, where conquest is a legitimate reason to start a war.
kspacewalk2 3y ago
What "civil war" are you talking about? Was Hitler's invasion of Poland also a civil war and if so, what is a civil war in your mind?