4 ms·

I grew up duck hunting and learned intimately how ducks use their wings and the variations of shapes at different velocities as they slow down to land on the wa

I grew up duck hunting and learned intimately how ducks use their wings and the variations of shapes at different velocities as they slow down to land on the water. I also grew up boating and swimming and have a likewise similar understanding of paddling, tracking a canoe straight, and using boat motor trim to "get on the plane". I guess I struggle with articles like this because it's already so intuitive as a mix of air and fluid dynamics. In fact, fixed airfoils are so boring when you see what a duck can do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3CVZYY8xS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3CVZYY8xS4 So for all the fancy physics talk, this duck is literally just paddling air with his wings. The same physiology I use to stay afloat when treading water while swimming.

mondrian 3y ago
Fixed airfoil physics become really important at very high speeds.
- jameshart 3y ago
  Or if your Cessna isn’t equipped with a flapping system.
  - mometsi 3y ago
    Amusingly, the flappy Cessnas were designed with the engine mounted right in front of the windshield. Where else could it possibly go? https://gallery.vtol.org/image/P2xYJ https://gallery.vtol.org/image/P2xYJ
solardev 3y ago
But when that fancy duck wants to get to Paris in a hurry, it still has to hop on a fixed-wing Concorde like everyone else.
- kjkjadksj 3y ago
  Give it a strong selective pressure towards speed and a few million years and you will have your supersonic duck.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
    Reverse dragooning by expelling fiery farts made of hypergolics fueled by fantastic fermentation?
    - bloopernova 3y ago
      Something like that is featured in Terry Pratchett's Discworld series of books. (Don't spoil the book it's in!) GNU Terry Pratchett
      - solardev 3y ago
        There's also that Harry Potter spinoff movie in which he becomes a supersonic corpse with a farting jet-butt in order to visit some pretty redwood parks: https://www.inverse.com/article/17614-how-swiss-army-man-made-daniel-radcliffe-s-farts-fly https://www.inverse.com/article/17614-how-swiss-army-man-mad...
      - LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
        Something similar already happened in reality in another evolutionary chain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle (on a much smaller scale)
  - solardev 3y ago
    Intercontinental ballistic mallards? Just another trillion-dollar boondoggle from the military-ornithological complex.
- CrimsonCape 3y ago
  Hummingbirds go to mexico to vacation a lot more than I do. Imagine if humans had a manadatory 2000 mile trip and 6 month layover twice a year to survive. Once you have technology that enables flapping type motion, it's opening up the applicable physics to like 6 degrees of freedom versus zero in current wing technology (fixed = 0 degree of freedom); much more complex and interesting to study. How else will we move toward ornithopter style wings, or vehicles that can hover via wing movement.
  - KeplerBoy 3y ago
    Rotating wing aircraft have no problem hovering mid-air. All we need are a handful of breakthroughs in battery tech.
    - seer 3y ago
      Rotating wing aircraft have problems with supersonic flight - and the wing (rotor) itself reaches supersonic much quicker than the aircraft itself, thats why helis are usually slow, compared to aircraft. I guess “supersonic wing flapping” would have similar problems, but maybe there are more clever solutions than can be modeled, with so much degree of freedom? And is “supersonic flapping” even possible?
- invalidlogin 3y ago
  I once ate duck in Paris.
  - solardev 3y ago
    That is a remarkable story...
- megablast 3y ago
  The arctic tern flies from the north pole to the south pole.
turtledragonfly 3y ago
> this duck is literally just paddling air with his wings Grossly speaking, sure. But I feel like this simplifies away a lot of the interesting bits. It's not as simple as, say, someone on a canoe paddling. Why is the duck's wing shaped just so, and not another way? Why does it move its wings just so instead of another way? I'm reminded of an analysis of fruit fly wings, showing how they re-capture energy from the air when flapping[1]. Maybe the duck is doing similar; I don't know. Of course, these animals make it look easy, thanks to millions of years of evolution (: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-86359-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-86359-z
estiaan 3y ago
I think you might be experiencing a bit of a dunning-kruger effect Also, in my experience there’s a huge difference between having an intuition for something and having an understanding of something to the point where you could model it.

mondrian 3y ago

Fixed airfoil physics become really important at very high speeds.

jameshart 3y ago
Or if your Cessna isn’t equipped with a flapping system.
- mometsi 3y ago
  Amusingly, the flappy Cessnas were designed with the engine mounted right in front of the windshield. Where else could it possibly go? https://gallery.vtol.org/image/P2xYJ https://gallery.vtol.org/image/P2xYJ

solardev 3y ago

But when that fancy duck wants to get to Paris in a hurry, it still has to hop on a fixed-wing Concorde like everyone else.

kjkjadksj 3y ago
Give it a strong selective pressure towards speed and a few million years and you will have your supersonic duck.
- LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
  Reverse dragooning by expelling fiery farts made of hypergolics fueled by fantastic fermentation?
  - bloopernova 3y ago
    Something like that is featured in Terry Pratchett's Discworld series of books. (Don't spoil the book it's in!) GNU Terry Pratchett
    - solardev 3y ago
      There's also that Harry Potter spinoff movie in which he becomes a supersonic corpse with a farting jet-butt in order to visit some pretty redwood parks: https://www.inverse.com/article/17614-how-swiss-army-man-made-daniel-radcliffe-s-farts-fly https://www.inverse.com/article/17614-how-swiss-army-man-mad...
    - LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
      Something similar already happened in reality in another evolutionary chain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle (on a much smaller scale)
- solardev 3y ago
  Intercontinental ballistic mallards? Just another trillion-dollar boondoggle from the military-ornithological complex.
CrimsonCape 3y ago
Hummingbirds go to mexico to vacation a lot more than I do. Imagine if humans had a manadatory 2000 mile trip and 6 month layover twice a year to survive. Once you have technology that enables flapping type motion, it's opening up the applicable physics to like 6 degrees of freedom versus zero in current wing technology (fixed = 0 degree of freedom); much more complex and interesting to study. How else will we move toward ornithopter style wings, or vehicles that can hover via wing movement.
- KeplerBoy 3y ago
  Rotating wing aircraft have no problem hovering mid-air. All we need are a handful of breakthroughs in battery tech.
  - seer 3y ago
    Rotating wing aircraft have problems with supersonic flight - and the wing (rotor) itself reaches supersonic much quicker than the aircraft itself, thats why helis are usually slow, compared to aircraft. I guess “supersonic wing flapping” would have similar problems, but maybe there are more clever solutions than can be modeled, with so much degree of freedom? And is “supersonic flapping” even possible?
invalidlogin 3y ago
I once ate duck in Paris.
- solardev 3y ago
  That is a remarkable story...
megablast 3y ago
The arctic tern flies from the north pole to the south pole.

turtledragonfly 3y ago

> this duck is literally just paddling air with his wings Grossly speaking, sure. But I feel like this simplifies away a lot of the interesting bits. It's not as simple as, say, someone on a canoe paddling. Why is the duck's wing shaped just so, and not another way? Why does it move its wings just so instead of another way? I'm reminded of an analysis of fruit fly wings, showing how they re-capture energy from the air when flapping[1]. Maybe the duck is doing similar; I don't know. Of course, these animals make it look easy, thanks to millions of years of evolution (: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-86359-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-86359-z

estiaan 3y ago

I think you might be experiencing a bit of a dunning-kruger effect Also, in my experience there’s a huge difference between having an intuition for something and having an understanding of something to the point where you could model it.