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This is going on like a broken record; No flack to the author, he got all rights to have his grievances. On the other hand, it feels like I've read this post be

by marcusf 14y ago

This is going on like a broken record; No flack to the author, he got all rights to have his grievances. On the other hand, it feels like I've read this post before. One thing that always comes up in these posts is: > If we fail fast you have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work. I don't get that...? Presumably, the guy you jump in a boat with will also have invested 6 months of his life in to this, and presuposing he, even the abstract random business guy he in this post, can't contribute anything of value seems inflammatory at best? Finally, I think that we should recognize that this is a fantastic problem to have. If you're approached weekly about new business ventures, you've probably made a good name and good game for yourself. Which is fantastic.

tferris 14y ago
> ... have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work Well observed. The problem with good developers these days is that they have too high opportunity costs: a good developer earns as contracter easily between 130K und 180K USD, even more. Compared to a non-techie this is remarkable because there are many high priced offers in this range and developers don't need to present such a polished CV like their business counterparts (they can have white spots, breaks, stayed just few months somewhere, etc. and still get easily high paid dev jobs because of the shortage). And business people usually cannot do contracting work that easily. This paired with a generally more risk-averse attitude leads to statements like "If we fail fast you have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work". I remember those days when I had a high salary plus a full packages of perks—I was lethargic and haven't followed great biz opportunities because I thought they are too small and will never reach my current income. And comparing opportunities as a founder with your current income as contractor or employee is fundamentally wrong. Even the best brands like Google, free fruit and 180K+ salaries will never give you the same feeling and confidence as when you build own thing. But the most will never make this experience, they even won't realize that they are wearing golden handcuffs all the time.
- lrobb 14y ago
  Easily? The average salary for a google engineer is a little over $100k. I guess we need to define what is "good".
  - StavrosK 14y ago
    Employees get a whole host of bonuses contractors don't get, hence the increase in profit.
    - lrobb 14y ago
      I completely glossed over where he mentioned contractors.
  - tferris 14y ago
    Yes, easily. Take day rates for average/good Java, Ruby on Rails are at around 700+ EUR in Europe and in the US around 900 USD => 900 day rate x 20 days a month x 11 months (one month off for vacation etc) = 198 K and demand for good Java and Ruby devs is endless ...
    - manuelflara 14y ago
      I don't know where in Europe you're talking about those 700+ EUR/day but in Spain I've even seem job offers for those same 700+ EUR per month. Yeap, sad but true. Of course, the average is a bit higher. I'd say 18K - 24K/year on average for web developers. So as a freelance you're definitely not going to be making anything close to 700 EUR/day. Maybe 200, if you're good.
      - marcusf 14y ago
        We charge a bit upwards of 1000 EUR per day for our senior consultants, here in Stockholm. We have had people who jumped ship and still charge that independently. With 80% workload, that works out to about 220 000 USD a year (With one month off). So it's not completely unheard of for a senior self-employed contrator.
- dsolomon 14y ago
  You're "facts" are far from that. The developers we have onsite with the customer (Department of Defense with Top Secret clearances) are paid roughly $40-50K/yr USD. If there were companies that actually paid the salaries you're quoting there would be a line of people at the front door every morning wanting to get hired.
  - marcusf 14y ago
    I'm sure he means self-employed.
  - ebiester 14y ago
    What?!? Maybe they're in their first year, or something, but I wasn't on site and I didn't even have clearance and I was paid significantly more than 50k. In Arizona. (I was doing support work.) When I said $$$ to BigCo in Silicon valley, they didn't blink, and I don't have the big names on my resume either.
    - dsolomon 14y ago
      I've worked for 4 companies within http://washingtontechnology.com/toplists/top-100-lists/2011.aspx http://washingtontechnology.com/toplists/top-100-lists/2011.... The rates that I've seen has actually gone down, Back in 2001 a developer with a TS/SCI/FSP would get around $45K with about 5 years experience (company is in the top 10). Today that same developer gets $40K with the same clearances (company within the top 50).
  - sparsevector 14y ago
    His numbers may be high but $40-50k/yr is pretty low. My impression is that software developer positions at top companies (Google, Microsoft, Facebook, etc) pay about 2x that.
    - devs1010 14y ago
      2x $40-50k? You are definitely off base, that would be maybe a starting salary for an entry level developer, if that.
theallan 14y ago
> If we fail fast you have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work. Isn't this part of the problem though - from "their" point of view coding is easy and can just be churned out. From "our" point of view business management, marketing etc is easy and anyone can do it. Its simply not true in both cases. As such, I completely agree with your statement, I don't understand either. If the co-partner wasn't going to be as completely committed, and perhaps more importantly, you trust them to be that committed, then there shouldn't be any partnership - they should be employing you.
- marcusf 14y ago
  Yeah, very true. What I guess I object to the most is the implication and stereotype that all people with a knack for business will take the first opportunity to slack off work and go golfing. From my experience, that's (usually) simply not the case.
chrisrhoden 14y ago
> ...If you're approached weekly about new business ventures, you've probably made a good name and good game for yourself. I don't think that's really true. I'm approached any time I am at an event with a business spin of any sort when people find out that I write code for a living. I am not saying I'm a bad programmer, but I will say that those who have heard of anything I have done are in the dramatic minority. And the number of people who can connect me to all of the projects I've worked on is less than 5. This includes a recent social event for skillshare. There are zero boundaries. It's completely reasonable to get frustrated.

by marcusf 14y ago

tferris 14y ago

> ... have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work Well observed. The problem with good developers these days is that they have too high opportunity costs: a good developer earns as contracter easily between 130K und 180K USD, even more. Compared to a non-techie this is remarkable because there are many high priced offers in this range and developers don't need to present such a polished CV like their business counterparts (they can have white spots, breaks, stayed just few months somewhere, etc. and still get easily high paid dev jobs because of the shortage). And business people usually cannot do contracting work that easily. This paired with a generally more risk-averse attitude leads to statements like "If we fail fast you have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work". I remember those days when I had a high salary plus a full packages of perks—I was lethargic and haven't followed great biz opportunities because I thought they are too small and will never reach my current income. And comparing opportunities as a founder with your current income as contractor or employee is fundamentally wrong. Even the best brands like Google, free fruit and 180K+ salaries will never give you the same feeling and confidence as when you build own thing. But the most will never make this experience, they even won't realize that they are wearing golden handcuffs all the time.

lrobb 14y ago
Easily? The average salary for a google engineer is a little over $100k. I guess we need to define what is "good".
- StavrosK 14y ago
  Employees get a whole host of bonuses contractors don't get, hence the increase in profit.
  - lrobb 14y ago
    I completely glossed over where he mentioned contractors.
- tferris 14y ago
  Yes, easily. Take day rates for average/good Java, Ruby on Rails are at around 700+ EUR in Europe and in the US around 900 USD => 900 day rate x 20 days a month x 11 months (one month off for vacation etc) = 198 K and demand for good Java and Ruby devs is endless ...
  - manuelflara 14y ago
    I don't know where in Europe you're talking about those 700+ EUR/day but in Spain I've even seem job offers for those same 700+ EUR per month. Yeap, sad but true. Of course, the average is a bit higher. I'd say 18K - 24K/year on average for web developers. So as a freelance you're definitely not going to be making anything close to 700 EUR/day. Maybe 200, if you're good.
    - marcusf 14y ago
      We charge a bit upwards of 1000 EUR per day for our senior consultants, here in Stockholm. We have had people who jumped ship and still charge that independently. With 80% workload, that works out to about 220 000 USD a year (With one month off). So it's not completely unheard of for a senior self-employed contrator.
dsolomon 14y ago
You're "facts" are far from that. The developers we have onsite with the customer (Department of Defense with Top Secret clearances) are paid roughly $40-50K/yr USD. If there were companies that actually paid the salaries you're quoting there would be a line of people at the front door every morning wanting to get hired.
- marcusf 14y ago
  I'm sure he means self-employed.
- ebiester 14y ago
  What?!? Maybe they're in their first year, or something, but I wasn't on site and I didn't even have clearance and I was paid significantly more than 50k. In Arizona. (I was doing support work.) When I said $$$ to BigCo in Silicon valley, they didn't blink, and I don't have the big names on my resume either.
  - dsolomon 14y ago
    I've worked for 4 companies within http://washingtontechnology.com/toplists/top-100-lists/2011.aspx http://washingtontechnology.com/toplists/top-100-lists/2011.... The rates that I've seen has actually gone down, Back in 2001 a developer with a TS/SCI/FSP would get around $45K with about 5 years experience (company is in the top 10). Today that same developer gets $40K with the same clearances (company within the top 50).
- sparsevector 14y ago
  His numbers may be high but $40-50k/yr is pretty low. My impression is that software developer positions at top companies (Google, Microsoft, Facebook, etc) pay about 2x that.
  - devs1010 14y ago
    2x $40-50k? You are definitely off base, that would be maybe a starting salary for an entry level developer, if that.

theallan 14y ago

> If we fail fast you have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work. Isn't this part of the problem though - from "their" point of view coding is easy and can just be churned out. From "our" point of view business management, marketing etc is easy and anyone can do it. Its simply not true in both cases. As such, I completely agree with your statement, I don't understand either. If the co-partner wasn't going to be as completely committed, and perhaps more importantly, you trust them to be that committed, then there shouldn't be any partnership - they should be employing you.

marcusf 14y ago
Yeah, very true. What I guess I object to the most is the implication and stereotype that all people with a knack for business will take the first opportunity to slack off work and go golfing. From my experience, that's (usually) simply not the case.

chrisrhoden 14y ago

> ...If you're approached weekly about new business ventures, you've probably made a good name and good game for yourself. I don't think that's really true. I'm approached any time I am at an event with a business spin of any sort when people find out that I write code for a living. I am not saying I'm a bad programmer, but I will say that those who have heard of anything I have done are in the dramatic minority. And the number of people who can connect me to all of the projects I've worked on is less than 5. This includes a recent social event for skillshare. There are zero boundaries. It's completely reasonable to get frustrated.