11 ms·

No, I won't be your technical co-founder

189 points by gryner 14y ago

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
jason_tko 14y ago
"Your are easily replaceable Only thing you have is your network. As a “business guy” in startup I expect you to have Barack Obama as 2. level LinkedIn connection and Zuckys number on speed dial. Well, anyway much wider network than I have. If you don’t – I probably don’t need you." This comment belies a stunning lack of understanding and respect for what actually goes into the business side of typical tech startups - the sales, marketing, user acquisition, hiring/team building, negotiations and every other thing that business co-founders actually do. A very irritating blight on an article that otherwise had some good points.
- brackin 14y ago
  Totally agree, there's a difference between the 'idea' people that add no value and the experienced guys that do everything you're talking about. No businesses aren't as easy as release a product and profit, even if they do have early traction because of the product, it doesn't mean they'll be able to make any money from it. Not if you want to build a medium - large sized company or one that doesn't sell after a few months. He had some good points but has obviously never started a profitable startup before.
- zorbo 14y ago
  So far, all the people who've approached me for startups have been "idea people". Those are the ones who think they'll get rich quick with a iPhone/iPad application/whatever, they just need someone to build it for them. Every single one of them, when asked what their contribution was going to be, gave me a blank stare. And naturally, they want you to do it for free ("You'll get a share of the profits!") while they're off chasing their next idea. The few truly interesting, reliable startup idea's I've seen are from real businessmen. Men with the network, contacts, funding, good ideas and commitment. Those kind of businessmen, the kind you are talking about if I understand correctly, are indispensable in a startup. Unfortunately, they seem to be somewhat more rare than the "idea people".
  - jason_tko 14y ago
    Right. And I'm saying that there's no better way to chase away the "real businessmen, men with the network, contacts, funding, good ideas and commitment", than by saying, "you are easily replaceable", and if I don't judge your network of people to be valuable then "I probably don’t need you". For anyone with the experience of working 20 hour days on the business side of a tech startup, this kind of statement is somewhat infuriating.
    - mgkimsal 14y ago
      It's infuriating on both sides, and I see where you're coming from with your comments here. I presume the OP wouldn't ever say "you're replaceable" to someone who actually has (and demonstrates) a network of any sort - it's the people who have no network whatsoever, but are seemingly unaware that that's important, and instead want to focus on 'an app!', that are the real red flags. Likewise, yes, many developers are also replaceable, though few like to think they are.
      - adrianhoward 14y ago
        I presume the OP wouldn't ever say "you're replaceable" to someone who actually has (and demonstrates) a network of any sort I think that the problem is the idea that "a network" is the only value that a business guy provides to a company...
        mgkimsal 14y ago
        True, if that's the only value someone presumes the other party is bringing, that's a problem. OTOH, I think people undervalue the value of a tech/dev's network - including developers themselves.
    - po 14y ago
      As Jason's technical co-founder, I can say that a large factor in why I personally decided to start a project with him was because his skills were complementary (read: opposite) from mine. It is easy to overlook all of the non-programming work that goes into building a business. Could I have built a system that checked off all of the features of ours without him? Sure. But it would have sat there unused because it wouldn't have been informed by his experience and opinions, the customers and feedback he's brought in, the partnerships he's formed, etc… The days of 'if you build it, they will come' are over and there is a huge amount of work to be done for non-programmers. I think this is actually becoming more true over time… especially in the early days of a startup. You dont even really need a programmer to build an MVP anymore. I've met plenty of the people the original article is complaining about, and there is the caveat that there are exceptions to the rule, but there are plenty of naive, wanna-be developers as well. Non-technical founders live on a spectrum of capability just like developers. You should think long and hard about what will make you say 'yes I will be your technical cofounder' and more importantly: 'I need to do X to convince a biz-dev guy whom I respect to work with me.'
- gryner 14y ago
  Thank you, the criticism is completely valid. I updated the article accordingly.
marcusf 14y ago
This is going on like a broken record; No flack to the author, he got all rights to have his grievances. On the other hand, it feels like I've read this post before. One thing that always comes up in these posts is: > If we fail fast you have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work. I don't get that...? Presumably, the guy you jump in a boat with will also have invested 6 months of his life in to this, and presuposing he, even the abstract random business guy he in this post, can't contribute anything of value seems inflammatory at best? Finally, I think that we should recognize that this is a fantastic problem to have. If you're approached weekly about new business ventures, you've probably made a good name and good game for yourself. Which is fantastic.
- tferris 14y ago
  > ... have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work Well observed. The problem with good developers these days is that they have too high opportunity costs: a good developer earns as contracter easily between 130K und 180K USD, even more. Compared to a non-techie this is remarkable because there are many high priced offers in this range and developers don't need to present such a polished CV like their business counterparts (they can have white spots, breaks, stayed just few months somewhere, etc. and still get easily high paid dev jobs because of the shortage). And business people usually cannot do contracting work that easily. This paired with a generally more risk-averse attitude leads to statements like "If we fail fast you have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work". I remember those days when I had a high salary plus a full packages of perks—I was lethargic and haven't followed great biz opportunities because I thought they are too small and will never reach my current income. And comparing opportunities as a founder with your current income as contractor or employee is fundamentally wrong. Even the best brands like Google, free fruit and 180K+ salaries will never give you the same feeling and confidence as when you build own thing. But the most will never make this experience, they even won't realize that they are wearing golden handcuffs all the time.
  - lrobb 14y ago
    Easily? The average salary for a google engineer is a little over $100k. I guess we need to define what is "good".
n9com 14y ago
You talk like you already have a successful startup of your own. Do you? Do you know how many great products backed by an amazing development team fail because they lack the skills in sales/marketing/design and/or strategy? If programming was the only thing that mattered, then why aren't all competent programmers millionaires?
- kaolinite 14y ago
  He didn't say that programming was the only thing that mattered. Of course it's not. However, there are tonnes of business people and not enough talented programmers. I think this sums up a lot of business types and why technical people are somewhat hostile towards them: http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/websites_stop/6.png http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/websites_stop/...
  - n9com 14y ago
    There are not enough talented business people either.
  - adrianhoward 14y ago
    However, there are tonnes of business people and not enough talented programmers. What I see is: * Tons of business people, not enough talented business people * Tons of developers, not enough talented developers ... the thing is that it's hard for talented developers to spot talented business folk among the throng. It's also hard for talented business folk to spot talented developers. I understand rants like this. I meet a lot of folk who don't have much of a clue about how much effort is involved on the development side. The thing is - if you go talk to the business folk - they have just as many horror stories of developers letting them down, not putting the work in, producing shoddy work, etc. Developers that come to them with what they think is a wonderful product - with no idea about their market or channels. The folk who think "sales" are just idiots who cold call people. Etc. Just a couple of months ago I was helping with a group who had spent £50k with what, to them, looked like a reputable development agency - and they essentially just threw that money away.
Fuzzwah 14y ago
@gryner: I checked your FB and noticed that English isn't your native tounge, so straight up I give you props for being able to communicate in a 2nd language waaaaaaay better than I ever will. However I found this article difficult to read. It was thought provoking though, so I just did a quick fly by edit. +++++++++++++++++ NO, I WON’T BE YOUR TECHNICAL CO-FOUNDER Hackers are becoming more and more like VCs, they often have to say "no". Last summer, just before the 500 demo day I attended an event which required me to fill in “company” on name tag. As I was there just to help out Zerply for less than 2 months I didn’t feel adequate enough use their name. I didn’t bother to write my consulting companies either as obviously it wouldn’t have said anything. I decided to go for “Hacker”. I don’t think I would have been forced to listen to as many pitches had I chosen “writing checks”. Every week I get approached by someone with a “game changing” idea. All they need is someone to execute it. “Hey, I’ve heard you are good at IT stuff, let’s start up!”. Well, no. I don’t know you. Startups and babies have one thing in common; you don’t do them with someone you just met. We will have to work together for years, sometimes 24 hours a day. Chances are we just met and you just handed me your card or at least I don’t know you well. How could I trust you with part of my business? There are thousands of issues that can ruin the relationship between startup founders, many of which can be foreseen. It might not even directly be your fault. Perhaps you have an over-controlling spouse that wants you home by 6 every day? If that’s the case, forgot about startups in general. I’m not passionate about the subject. Passion is the fuel that powers startups, it helps get through tough times and get things done. My passion is games. It isn't a hard and fast rule, but unless your idea has something to do with games I probably won’t be interested. People often approach me with a random idea they had, but without the spark in their eyes. That’s a sure sign of approaching failure and I’m not going to buy first class ticket on the Titanic. You expect me to invest at least 60 000€ It’s reasonable to for MVP to take 6 months. We could release an earlier version, just to be ashamed of it, but 6 months is probable. If we consider just 8 hour work days 5 days a week it totals about 120 000€ by my normal consulting rate. Time is money; why should I invest mine in your idea? And if I do, why should I accept only 50% or even less of the equity? After all, I have made an investment of actual work while you played around with excel spreadsheets and sent out a few press releases? Sarcasm aside, during first few months of startup development, hackers are doing all the work and taking all the risk. If we fail fast you have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work. Your are easily replaceable. Let’s face it – good hackers are scarce resource. That’s why you are talking to me. However conferences, meetups and other places where startup industry players gathers to escape the daylight are filled with available marketers and business monkeys. Only thing you have is your network. As a “business guy” in a startup I expect you to have Barack Obama as a 2nd level LinkedIn connection and Zuckys number on speed dial. Well, anyway much wider network than I have. If you don’t – I probably don’t need you. There are exceptions of course, people who have already proved themselves, but that’s an entirely different ballgame. Experience in other fields does not matter – even if they come from tech industry, startups are nothing like your average business plan. “I don’t know the IT stuff” I don’t know anything about construction, medicine or farming. Common denominator here is, I’m not planning to do business in any of these fields. If you say outright that you know nothing about IT, it means you won’t respect nor understand my work, will set unreasonable goals and probably won’t be pleasant to work with. At least get some basic knowledge of the technical side if you want any hacker to take you seriously. And lose the darn tie. How to make me consider it. I can think of two cases where I have seriously considered taking the role and might actually do it at some point. One of them was a guy approaching me with an idea for a piece of software he desperately needed himself. Not desperately, but enough to invest money into it. He was straightforward from the beginning – he knew the industry, knew the problem and could provide the first clients and testers. Later on he hoped to sell it to some bigger player – not change the world/cure AIDS or eliminate hunger. It was barely a startup as he wasn’t hunting millions, just a quick cash and to scratch his own itch. Second case was a team of 2 developers asking me to be the third. They had a better business model and market research than most MBAs that have asked me to join. They also acknowledged that the task was so big they would benefit from having another set of hands. I can respect that. What did these two cases have that others haven't? First of all, I knew the people for some time, one of them for about 10 years. Secondly they had well defined goals and business models. You are not Steve Jobs, you do not have a reality disorientation field. Vision is not enough. I want to see numbers and research before I decide to make the investment of my time and effort. I am considering making separate business cards for people who want me to be their technical co-founder. They will only have a QR code on them – to this article.
kator 14y ago
The TVM (Time Value of Money) aspect here is the one most often issues under valued by "business types". That said it goes both ways, I've been a serial entrepreneur and a big corporate type. And it's clear that on the business side people work hard too if they are going to be successful and they too have a TVM problem. The biggest failure I see tech people make is not properly communicating the real level of effort a project takes. In a room full of techs if we talk about a problem we all have a reasonable understanding of how hard it is. We might be off a bit in our estimates but in general we understand the difference in effort of various proposals. When in a room of business people with no domain expertise we assume they understand what it's like to spend 100's if not 1,000's of hours working on a technical project. They don't understand it any more then most techs understand how hard it is to setup a company, get the business registered, shareholder agreements written, contracts developed, taxes handled etc. That issue however is a failure on both parties part, techs have to learn to own their half of the "assumption" problem. They need to clearly articulate how much work something is going to take and convert that effort into real dollars and timelines. True story a very famous musician friend of mine and I were talking one day and I asked him "How long did it take you to write that song XXX" (very famous song) and he said "Hmm a couple days here and there then in the studio.." we both agreed it must have been maybe a 60 hour commitment. Then he asked me about a project I had just finished with a major car manufacturer and I said "Oh that was 6 man years of effort". He asked me "What is a man year?" and of course I tried to explain in lay terms what it's like to have someone at a keyboard for 2,000 hours and do that with six people. He was blown away at the effort he literally would bring it up in future conversations for years when we would chat on various topics. In tech we take for granted that we work on labor scales that are massive and our failure to explain that to other people only makes the "startup conundrum" worse.
felixchan 14y ago
Here's the problem with silicon valley: Engineers think they rule the world. But in reality, product people rule the world. It doesn't matter if your other "non-technical" co-founder sits on his ass all day and you work your ass off...because you have to understand that one angle of perception--one simple spark of an idea--can create just as much value as your sweat work. "Point of View is worth 80 IQ points" When you wrote "Your are easily replaceable"...you are 100% wrong. YOU are easily replaceable. You're just the coder who builds the thing. Once MVP is launched and the company raises funding, you could easily be replaced because I guarantee you there are thousands of engineers just as good as you. The product guy, on the other hand, is the DNA of the company. He forms the vision, culture, management. You can't replace that.
- JoeAltmaier 14y ago
  Yeah, everybody in the chain thinks they are the critical link. The difference is, without a product the investors don't come easy. A hacker can make something, get it in front of users, maybe even get a sale all by themselves. So they have a natural inclination to see the other half as 'hire some marketing once I have something to show'.
  - conker 14y ago
    Enlighten me, what's the product investors want? Is it your boring as hell slide deck? That overly optimistic spreadsheet? That oh-so-inspiring blog post about stuff not related to the product itself? Or maybe is the app the technical founder made?
    - georgespencer 14y ago
      Investors want a return on their fucking investment. That isn't just an app built by an asshole engineer who lives in a myopic world. It isn't just a spreadsheet showing projections for growth and a strategy behind it. Investors want a return on their fucking investment. To get that you need all the parts of your startup working together, and nobody wanking on about being valuable and stupidly and pointlessly generalising the work of others. Well done on listing a bunch of straw men. Is it your patchy account session controller? Is it your user View which specifies Arial before Helvetica in the stylesheet? etc etc etc.
georgespencer 14y ago
I'm sick of this sort of crummy linkbait. The exact same thing crops up every few months on HN. "Ideas are a dime a dozen! Engineering is the one true way! Execution is paramount! Reddit, here's a picture of my cute cat!" It's not black and white (the cat, or the matter in hand here). As a community, we all nurture fragile ideas. Some of them are big, bold ideas (like beating Google at search), but almost all of them are very fragile. People shouldn't labour on in delusion, but if you say the wrong thing to the wrong dispirited guy who has been thinking about a brilliant idea for three months, then you're going to harm rather than help. And you can help without investing your asshole consulting time. Nobody needs more assholes reflecting on their status within the startup landscape ("I'm a scarce resource") and denigrating people who presumably are coming to you to share ideas they're excited about ("available markers" – whatever that means – "and business monkeys"), whilst simultaneously insinuating that the work engineers do is somehow more vital or worthy ("I have [to] make an investment and [do] actual work while you played [sic] around with excel spreadsheets and send [sic] out a few press releases?"). Engineering is vitally important. But that alone does not encompass execution. An MVP (or a P) is the sum total of the amount of sheer thought that has gone into it from everyone who has worked on it or cares about it. Your asshole consulting code doesn't mean anything if it's a feature which nobody needs. A great software engineer contributes code and creative ideas which push a project on. A non-technical co-founder should protect their engineering team and contribute creative ideas which push a project on, whilst doing the grunt work required to push the project on (pay your taxes. Find an office. Do an angel raise. All the crappy ephemeral stuff that goes with a new startup). But most importantly they are there to care and nurture fragile ideas. The thing which I sincerely loved about this article was the last paragraph. And it's probably a charge which could be leveraged at this comment, but you should have reconsidered your entire post around the final paragraph. Instead of making it a polemic against curious people with ideas who want to share them with you, and telling them just why you're not interested in working with anyone ever, you should have helped people be more persuasive with those ideas in talking to highly technically literate individuals. Yes, there are countless people who believe they have ideas which can change the world. Yes, there are fewer engineers who can help them get there. What these ideas people need is someone who is prepared to help them realise they are at step 1 of 1.5m, and the most critical thing to do right now is get to step 2. That takes five seconds. It takes a pertinent question. It takes making them stop and think for a second. It doesn't take a list of vaguely offensive barbs and generalisations. Context: I am a semi-technically literate cofounder (HTML/CSS/JS, competent PHP).
felixjmorgan 14y ago
Christ, this was difficult to read. Completely delusional rant from someone who clearly has no concept of what goes into turning a start-up from a basement project into a commercial success. I'm not sure why you think an engineer has a lot more to lose than the business guy, the logic there is incredibly flawed. It also seems to have a huge air of superiority, which seems somewhat unsubstantiated when looking at your resume.
Swizec 14y ago
>Let’s face it – good hackers are scarce resource. That’s why you are talking to me. However conferences, meetups and other places where startup industry players gathers to escape the daylight are filled with available marketers and business monkeys. I used to think like this. Then I interned at Doublerecall. Seeing those business guys do their jobs ... I was figuratively blown away. I mean wow. They worked harder on business development than I have ever seen a hacker work on even their most favorite projects. Fact of the matter is, business work involves a lot of ... stuff. Everything is hands on, very little of it can be automated, you're dealing with people all the time and, to be perfectly honest, there probably isn't a hacker out there who could really work as a business guy. We're just too lazy. Nothing about taking tens upon tens of meetings a week says "replaceable" to me.
- mgkimsal 14y ago
  "However conferences, meetups and other places where startup industry players gathers to escape the daylight are filled with available marketers and business monkeys" The fact that we have a "startup industry" is slightly unnerving, and "players" in that industry even moreso. I suspect that both 'developers' and 'business monkeys' who try to get involved in this 'industry' and hang with the 'players' too much aren't the sort of people you want as part of your team. So, yeah, in one sense you're right to criticize the capabilities of 'business guys' attending 'startup conferences', but the same criticism might be levelled at non-business people at those same conferences. The truly capable - those executing in their chosen fields - probably won't be at too many of those events on a regular basis.
  - brazzy 14y ago
    Are you trying to single-handedly exhaust the national scare quotes reserves?
- peteretep 14y ago
  Everyone else's job looks easy to people who don't understand the intricacies of it (as you've identified). If you're bitching about how a non-technical cofounder is easily replaced, you probably don't understand what they (are meant to) do.
JVIDEL 14y ago
Once I was talking to some ex-web1.0 "entrepreneurs" (if you could call them that) who wanted to build one of those no-funding accelerators and, get this: they couldn't make the website and wanted me to do it for them. For FREE... And these were supposed to be guys with experience FFS, one even had "computer science" on his resume, turns out he put that because his highschool had an above-average computer program. I had physics in highschool, does that makes me a physicist? of course not. There are biz-dev founders who really know their shit, can't even code a "hello world" but know a lot about how to get around problems, so they are a valuable asset. I talked to one during a meetup: he could answer any question you could possibly have about financing and banking. If I were building a payments service I would give that guy a call RFN and ask him to join. But lets face it: this gold rush has attracted a lot of me-too wantrepreneurs who can't even jailbreak an iPhone or make a Wordpress install, yet have no respect for IT and believe hackers are just the "kids" you convince to work for free and then give a fraction of a fraction of the pie...
pjmo 14y ago
Basically this boils down to: If you're looking for a technical co-founder to complement your skills, make sure you have built trust with someone, have done your research, and understand why your building something. So pretty much like every other position.
raarky 14y ago
It feels like this was written out of frustation. I understand the problems and points you have raised however, this post is probably not a very good idea if you value your reputation. When people google your name they might interpret this post as coming from someone rather arrogant. Just sayin' :)
bryanadams 14y ago
Speaking as a former startup founder, I can tell you that good business people are just as scarce as good hackers. It's just harder to evaluate business people (at least, it is for me). Also: it's important that all co-founders can present themselves as humble and self-aware. Using terms like "business monkeys" and saying "you played around with excel spreadsheets" made me wince.
padobson 14y ago
The biggest problem I see in these comments and in this post is that the assumption that the skills described exist in a vacuum. Product guys can only ever be product guys. Engineers can only be engineers. Business men can only be business men. If you work at a startup, you better be prepared to be all three and more. If you aren't smart enough to be all three, then you can't be my cofounder.
lrobb 14y ago
>>>After all, I have make an investment and actual work while you played around with excel spreadsheets and send out a few press releases? I don't even know where to begin... Such a gross misunderstanding of what a competent business development person can bring to the table. I know a couple of guys that I would gladly sign up with for equity, knowing they can take a product and bring in millions of revenue.
Schwolop 14y ago
The take-aways to pay attention to here are the upbeat and less snarky parts. Like that a good business guy is worth his weight in gold. I've been networking like a lady-of-loose-morals trying to find one, and it's just as hard as finding a good engineer. (Fortunately as to the latter case, I already are one.) As a result I've been doing the business development, customer seduction - sorry, acquisition - and networking required to get this done myself. It's really hard. Yes, there's a lot of idiots with business degrees and the first socio-loco-mobo-deals app idea that popped into their heads. There's also a few business minded geniuses hiding out there too. Don't dismiss them out of hand because of the oversupply of the others.
josscrowcroft 14y ago
I thought the author was smart enough (still do, actually) until I read this gem: "I am considering making separate business cards for people who want me to be their technical co-founder. They will only have a QR code on them – to this article." I don't know if I'd still be interested in a technical cofounder who used a QR code to tell me why I was mistaken.
captaincrunch 14y ago
Well said, I'm a co-founder from Verelo.com - we knew each other for a couple years. I can't imagine doing a start-up with a stranger... it'd never last. The amount of things that come up, and the stress... you need someone you know well. It's a roller coaster of a ride
asto 14y ago
Hackers can be great at running a business with a bit of effort. Ex: Google founders. Now show me one "product guy" who's coded and launched a million-dollar site/app. Both sides view the other as replaceable, only one is right.
- georgespencer 14y ago
  Yes, if only Kevin Systrom existed. Oh, no, wait, your argument is flat out wrong.
  - asto 14y ago
    I didn't know of his background, so I googled. He learnt to code while he was working a job and his first startup came later? Anyway, he doesn't seem to have done much of interest before his first startup. The question rephrased: Show me a guy who has gone from being a success in management/finance to having a startup idea and then writing code for it (I think this is a fair equivalent of coder with no business experience founding a company and then continuing to run it when it becomes very profitable)
    - georgespencer 14y ago
      He worked in marketing and had ideas, so he learned to code to build them. Then the idea for Instagram came along, he built it, marketed it and sold it. "Management/finance" doesn't mean anything, other than excluding Systrom as a specific example which disproves your theory. You're asking to see someone who was successful in a non-technical role who had an idea for a startup and learnt to code to build it. Let me surprise you: very few people learn to code just to learn to code. Most people learn to code to scratch an itch. How many news stories have we seen in the last few years about people who learned to code simple addictive games for iPhone? In that sense, I'd argue that almost everyone learns to code because they have an idea they want to see happen. A lot of them go on to become full time software engineers. A lot of them don't.
- dataisfun 14y ago
  Heard of pinterest? Ben and Paul were not engineers. Ben's the product guy you so disparage.
nikcub 14y ago
A sweeping generalization of business and product people. I'll offer a counter example. This story starts over a decade ago. There was a high level executive at a large enterprise software firm. The guy was one of the best enterprise sales people in North America and highly valued by the organization. In reading about the trend of software moving online he realized that the industry he was in, selling large scale enterprise solutions to Fortune 500 companies, was eventually going to be replaced by software delivered online. He attempted to get his organization to shift into investing in online web services, but they saw it as a threat to their traditional business model. He quit work and then went to find technical people who could implement the visitation. He ended up recruiting a group of 8-10 developers, all sold on the vision. He wrote up a quick vision for the company and raised a few million dollars on the back of it. He leased out cheap and nasty office space down in the suburbs outside of San Jose. He spent two weeks writing a software specification for a new enterprise product that would be entirely web based. The spec was a couple of dozen pages long. He also wrote a marketing brief on how the product would be sold. He handed the spec over to the developers and then went on vacation in Hawaii for a few months while they built the initial version of the product. A few months later and with a first version he went out to the media and announced 'the end of software' and introduced a new web services model for the enterprise: salesforce.com. Over 10 years later and the company has a $20 billion market cap, defined an entirely new industry and threatened the business of his old employer (Oracle) to the extend that they setup a clone competitor. If the original developers who joined Marc Benioff had read this blog post, they would have questioned 'his contribution', especially the part where he took off on holiday. Product and business people are entirely undervalued. Benioff could have found the eight developers he required from any thousands of other developers to implement what he had in mind, but there was only one person who had the vision, perseverance and balls to do what he did.
- jonnathanson 14y ago
  This is well said (and, perhaps, a similar story could be told about Steve Jobs). But I think there's at least one point in the article that holds true: it's very tough to evaluate the credibility of a "business" co-founder until he's achieved success. A developer's talent can be measured and normalized; a business person -- before he becomes successful -- is a much riskier and more unknowable commodity. One way to look at things is to say that great businesspeople are undervalued. Another viewpoint is that the valuation of businesspeople carries with it a much higher risk multiplier. Or that the valuation has far fewer knowable variables. The article makes a variety of very unfair, broad, and naive generalizations about the role of a great business, marketing, or product person. It seems to conflate all business people into one bucket -- lumping the fly-by-night hucksters and phonies in with the true visionaries. And its point about how a business founder is 'only as good as his contact list' is a bit ridiculous. But unfortunately, that contact list is often the business person's best calling card. It's one of very few, knowable variables that he brings to the table. (A track record on paper is great, but can be unreliable, because anyone can spin a resume. Conversely, a list of impressive people who can vouch for someone, or even go to bat for him, is much more actionable).
humblebro 14y ago
Could bare only reading this half-way through.My man,you come off as pretentious,while at the same time you make mistakes like 'if that's the case,forgot about startups'and'track recors' just to point out a couple. And that would be fine,if you were not deluding yourself that you are some type of a hot shot master of the universe.
- mtjl79 14y ago
  You made a mistake. "Could bare" - I think you mean "barely". Also: You forgot a space after the comma every time you use one. So what where you saying about his article mistakes again? :)
jakejake 14y ago
I've been around long enough that I've had many, many such pitches. Some from serious business people and some from people with just an idea and no experience at all. I feel it's good to keep an open mind, but I do insist on an equal commitment from all parties involved. One way for the business person to do that is to raise the capital that pays our living expenses and operating costs for the initial development. If I'm on board, I'll tell them to use my name to show that we have a tech team in place. But if they can't raise any money then I don't usually see a point in beginning the development phase. This sometimes is a wake-up call to the person pitching. But even if the idea takes off, they will be spending a lot of their time raising money. So if they can't do it now, it's unlikely they'll be able to do it later when we need to grow the company. Of course like the OP I have to be at least interested in the industry or idea as well.
jefreybulla 14y ago
I agree for the most part of this article. That's why I advice entrepreneurs to go all-in and validate their idea before trying to find the perfect tech-cofounder. I recently wrote a post about "I don't find a technical co-founder what options do I have? ". I think you might enjoy it http://jefreybulla.tumblr.com/ http://jefreybulla.tumblr.com/.
mark_integerdsv 14y ago
Once I had a mad crush on this girl in my neighborhood. I spoke to my dad about it and he suggested I write her a letter. I told him I was nervous about what to put in it and I suggested that maybe I should write it, leave it, read it in the morning and see if I felt I could send it. My dad said something awesome that day. He said: "Mark, if everyone in the world thought like that-there would be no love letters." ...I can't help but feel that if everyone in the world thought like this guy-there would be no startups.
huhtenberg 14y ago
> Let’s face it – good hackers are scarce resource. That’s why you are talking to me. Oh, common. Get of your high horse already. Good business people are even scarcer and they are not talking to you. And in an off-chance that one of them approaches you, you might not realize it, because your horse gets in the way.
jhuckestein 14y ago
The tone is very harsh, but I agree with author's sentiment. Certainly there are exceptions, but in most cases I've seen the way "business" people approach technical co-founders is Yesterday I had someone who claims to be a tech entrepreneur tell me that they "don't care about that sh*t" and that "this is why you're an engineer and I'm not" while I was using the webkit inspector in chrome. You can see this attitude a lot and it has lack of dedication/passion an entitlement written all over. I'm sorry, but I know tons of non-techies that are able to understand, pick up and use this feature within minutes. Adults seem to have an unnatural aversion to learning. Kids are okay with not being able to walk, walk, do math, read, write etc and will spend years developing important skills. It baffles me why so many twenty-somethings already feel pigeonholed into the non-techie role and don't want to learn anything new, even if it allegedly is their greatest passion. If you spend only six months on it you'll be able to implement most webapps or mobile apps mvp. Sure, it'll suck, but you'll have an easier time finding a co-founder and the collaboration will be better. I have never owned a car. If I wanted to make a car company, my first step would be to learn everything about cars. I certainly wouldn't fo from garage to garage trying to convince random mechanics to quit their jobs to be my co-founder with 30% equity and no salary just because I have a car-related idea. The same goes for hollywood. I wouldn't show up to a film-related event and tell everyone my great movie idea (after all, I HAVE seen many movies) and ask for one director, one screenwriter, some actors, a bunch of other dudes and a ton of money. Disclaimer: I majored in Math AND went to business school. I also have a CS degree that I got mostly on the side, because I was interested in the high leverage of software businesses.
deleted 14y ago
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zbruhnke 14y ago
As someone who recently made this mistake (and in a big way) I whole-heartedly agree with just about everything you have said here. I had already sold a company, I had proven myself both as a hacker and as someone with at least enough business acumen to close a deal without too many lawyer fees and come out with a good amount of money in the bank. Now that I have made this mistake I will probably never go into business again without knowing the person like the back of my hand. And they will almost certainly have to be at least as technical as me or be a domain expert of some sort. I'm sure some see the author as biased or scorned but for the most part he is right. "idea people" are a dime a dozen, but your idea with no execution = 0
rralian 14y ago
I am also approached like this pretty often and have many of the same biases. I was planning to write a similar (though less scathing) post myself. While the author makes some grand generalized statements that he probably doesn't really mean, I think they are born of frustration. There are just too many people who try to skip straight to being the "business person" without any experience to back it up. The typical person who just needs "a technical person" to build their vision... ugh. They ask to meet you for coffee, but then want you to sign their NDA. It's because they think their idea alone is their contribution of 50% of the business (or more), because frankly they have no idea what it takes. But they can't match my own skills and experience on the business side of a startup (and I'm the tech guy). The story of Marc Benioff in the top comment, that's the story of a credible co-founder. A successful person with years of knowledge and experience in a lucrative market... I salivate over that prospect. For me that's a no-brainer. So to you would-be biz-folk (talking to the n00bs here), just don't forget to pay your dues. Get a job at a startup and learn what it's like. Take some courses in programming and give it a shot. Learn all that you can about lean startups and customer development. Validate your product with a concierge MVP. Hire some college kid or cheap company in India to build your prototype. Show me that you have some traction and something to offer and can find ways to move forward even without the "tech guy". Then we can talk.
Czarnian 14y ago
I must be reading this differently than a lot of people. I don't think he's talking about actual business people. People with demonstrated experience, skill, and/or ability. It sounds more like he's talking about the idea tourist. The guy who truly believes that the secret to start-up success is: 1. Have an idea. 2. . . . 3. Make money. I think we can all agree that the idea tourist is annoying. If all you bring to the table is something as ephemeral as an idea, just keep walking. I've got no time for you.
arnoldwh 14y ago
Ha, you inspired me to write this: "No I won't Be Your Business Co-Founder" http://arnoldhur.tumblr.com/post/22794390635/no-i-wont-be-your-business-co-founder http://arnoldhur.tumblr.com/post/22794390635/no-i-wont-be-yo...
erikb 14y ago
It's so true, but in both directions and also in the direction of the design department. The thing is it's hard to find the real deal with all the people out there who are quite confident about being the real deal, while they actually aren't. Sometimes it's even hard to see yourself, if you are the real deal or not, because it's just so easy to talk yourself into believing it, while doing it is actually quite hard, right?
marcoi 14y ago
These posts (of which there are plenty) rely on the extremely common and (I think) extremely flawed assumption that company = technology + marketing/sales. Hence, great tech + great network = $$$. A company is first and foremost a product. Which involves understanding in a novel manner both your users and the technology to build it. Great product people can be techies, designers, "business people" (whatever that means), sales people, doctors and housewives. They are those who define the company. Secondly, a company is a team of individuals. Getting many people to work well together is very hard. Then there is technology, marketing, and finance and HR etc. Of course there are many "nontrepreneurs", but it gets boring to gripe about them. More importantly, I feel like an engineer who pidgeon-holes himself as a techie (and that's it) lacks ambition, and is unlikely to get senior in a successful startup. All techies I can think of who started a big one seem to prove this. (Signed: engineer AND business person)
Aloisius 14y ago
Dear OP, I know you wrote this article thinking, man, it is time to get some HN karma action. They will eat this stuff up! And indeed, there are a lot of people who upvoted you. Congratulations! And yet, this has to be one of the more egotistical, narcissistic, self-serving rants I've seen on HN. There are a lot of lately. They generally starts with the line, "Why I..." At least you didn't post one of those. Small favors I suppose. I'm sorry you're so in demand that people won't stop hounding you to join them and that it is just takes too much time for you to politely tell them no! How awful that must be for you. Engineers are not the center of the universe. The good ones are difficult to find, but good people of all disciplines are hard to find. I would chew my own arm off for a top tier sales guy who could build sales plans and execute them deftly. An bizdev guy who can maintain a large network and work them effectively and isn't a schmuck is worth their weight in gold. A product guy who actually talks to, understands and truly empathizes with customers? Far more rare than you are. At some point in your career, I hope soon, you will come to realize that non-engineers have value too.
- kamaal 14y ago
  I think his point is non-engineers can only add second level of value. Meaning you still can't make things. No matter what your are selling, you are still selling stuff 'made' by others.
  - heretohelp 14y ago
    I'd agree...except Oracle exists. :|
dools 14y ago
We (programmers/engineers/developers whatever you want to call it) have a LOT to answer for. Evenly represented on the HN home page every few months are: 1) You don't need a programmer, you need a technical co-founder (aka. you can't pay someone to do this job because you can't possibly afford it) 2) I am sick of people asking me to be their technical co-founder The engineering side of tech have spend a good few years recycling each other's kool aid and we're starting to believe it. Hell we're saying the same bullshit over and over so much that even the non-tech side is starting to believe it. The problems that 90% of companies solve are not difficult. There are literally millions of people crawling the planet that can solve these problems and yet our inability to work together has created an entire generation of primadonna's like the OP that swan around like the bell of the ball.
dataisfun 14y ago
This discussions (which seem to happens as frequently as sunsets) are so petty and generally worthless. Lots of great businesses are driven by sales as well as code. One is either building or selling a product. And great talent in each department is hard to find. Yes, some consumer apps definitely require less "sales." But I'd wager there are lots more indignant engineers complaining about how much in demand they are than there are engineers who are actually building great companies. Stop publicly complaining and go do something successful.
kamaal 14y ago
Good people are difficult to get in any profession. Good Hackers, product guys, business guys, sales people are all difficult to get. The problem starts when every Joe at the end of the street thinks merely having an idea merits him to become a millionaire and guys who work that to happen are fundamentally easily replaceable slaves. This works the other way around too, if you are a bad programmer and you think selling is easy, and sales guy is unable to sell you bad product then your wrong. Execution is a art, no matter what is getting executed. Great execution is difficult in any walk of life. Just like how good hackers are a scare resource, so are good business people. In general good people are difficult to get.
kondro 14y ago
Ideas are everywhere and most aren't unique. The average "business" guy's ideas on implementation are usually quite crappy. If someone wants me to be their "technical" co-founder, I will want market-rate salary compensation and equity equal to the other founders and they better be well connected to sales & marketing and additional funding opportunities. They need me, not me them.
tylermenezes 14y ago
I always find it odd when I talk to a VC or someone about my startup and they're surprised that we've known each other for 5-6 years and have worked together before. I can understand having an idea and not knowing how to implement on it, but I can't understand trying to make a business out of that. I have many good ideas I'm not qualified to have. I either take the time to become qualified (how I learned programming in the first place), or just shelve them. I think that's the same reasoning which caused YC to do the no-idea thing. Ideas are cheap, the team is what's important. I guarantee someone had the idea of Twitter before Twitter.
EternalFury 14y ago
If I may add a few other considerations... 1) Age discrimination I am 40. You wouldn't believe how many "in urgent need of a tech co-founder" entrepreneurs recoil when they learn the fact. You won't fit in. You won't understand us. Blah blah blah... Umm...I assure you, if I can deal with half a dozen programming languages in my sleep, if I can run a family, if I am strong enough to run 30+ miles a week (on top of weight training), if I can complete my day job without swearing or sweating, I CAN UNDERSTAND YOU and I WOULD NEVER JUDGE YOU based on your age alone. I only care about what you got under your skull cap. 2) Do you know this? Do you know that? Can you solve that tricky trick we found on the Web this morning? I don't care. If you have a problem, I will research it. Before you have 2 problems, I will have picked all the knowledge I need to give you 1 solution. It could be something I already know. It could be something I never heard about. I am a human being. Adapting is in my DNA and I adapt all the time. 3) We got this great idea/solution, will you help us build it? I'm sorry, what is the GREAT problem (the GREAT problem someone will pay good money to address) you wish to solve? Honestly, guys, ideas are a dime a dozen, particularly ideas in the consumer space where a business model seems to be optional. What you need is knowledge about a tremendous pain/problem a lot of people want to spend money on solving. 4) Success is a conjunction of talents. I have great respect for business people, sales people, consultants, customer service people, patent lawyers, finance gurus, etc. They all do things that are essential to growing a sound business. Things I should not do. Everyone must bring something to the table and everyone must know and appreciate what everyone else brings to the table. Freeloaders sooner or later sink the ship.
hef19898 14y ago
After having read his reasons of why he wont be my tech co-founder I'm almost sure I don't want him as a co-founder neither. You are only in it for the money: If you can make 60k in 6 months consulting, than do that. I can't pay that much, I can't even pay myself that much. And if your only contribution to the next FB is only worth 60k you aren't good enough. You undervalue me / overvalue yourself: 50 % of equity aren't enough? I invest the same amount of time (which, by the way, also means money to me. Without a start-up I would make 90k a year as a employee...). A start is like a child, you know? 50-50 if it wasn't in-vitro. I don't know you: Who are you? Well, we just met... You are replaceable: Since you don't know the industry I want to develop a new product for I can take about just any developer. As an employee you may fit but not as aco-founder. I haven't proven myself: That's why I want to do a start-up. Proving yourself in business in a big corp means becoming a middle pointy haired manager. I'm not going to be one, hence my missing entrepreneur track record. You aren't passionate about it: I am, you not. Well, it is all about passion so we may just not match in this particular endeavour. Disclaimer: I don't even belief half of what I just wrote. Whoever finds irony can keep it :-)! Seriously, If you approach a future partner-in-crime like that nobody can help you anymore. Everything is to late and you REALLY are bad in business. But if you put any non-technical guy (general question: do you consider mech. engineers as non-technical, too? If yes, I don't like you anymore ;-)) in that category you aren't much better. And if you are that good that you don't need the a idea / business guy why don#t you just go ahead yourself? I already wrote things like that before, I'll repeat it now: You are looking for a person you will spend more time during the next couple of years than you own wife. Be carefull about who you pick, it is hard. Every party is risking the same, time, money, career. Youare in this together, so respect youself. And damn it, value your collegues! Respect them, as a professional AND a person. That's one of the reasons lot of peopla start start-ups, a lack of respect as an employee. And respect goes both ways. Mind that, if you don't the only thing you will be is cocky first and business or tech second. EDIT: In y erlier post (http://martingryner.com/how-i-screwed-up-my-first-business-model/ http://martingryner.com/how-i-screwed-up-my-first-business-m...) he wrote that: "Technology wont solve all your problems", I think he is right about that.

189 points by gryner 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

"Your are easily replaceable Only thing you have is your network. As a “business guy” in startup I expect you to have Barack Obama as 2. level LinkedIn connection and Zuckys number on speed dial. Well, anyway much wider network than I have. If you don’t – I probably don’t need you." This comment belies a stunning lack of understanding and respect for what actually goes into the business side of typical tech startups - the sales, marketing, user acquisition, hiring/team building, negotiations and every other thing that business co-founders actually do. A very irritating blight on an article that otherwise had some good points.

brackin 14y ago
Totally agree, there's a difference between the 'idea' people that add no value and the experienced guys that do everything you're talking about. No businesses aren't as easy as release a product and profit, even if they do have early traction because of the product, it doesn't mean they'll be able to make any money from it. Not if you want to build a medium - large sized company or one that doesn't sell after a few months. He had some good points but has obviously never started a profitable startup before.
zorbo 14y ago
So far, all the people who've approached me for startups have been "idea people". Those are the ones who think they'll get rich quick with a iPhone/iPad application/whatever, they just need someone to build it for them. Every single one of them, when asked what their contribution was going to be, gave me a blank stare. And naturally, they want you to do it for free ("You'll get a share of the profits!") while they're off chasing their next idea. The few truly interesting, reliable startup idea's I've seen are from real businessmen. Men with the network, contacts, funding, good ideas and commitment. Those kind of businessmen, the kind you are talking about if I understand correctly, are indispensable in a startup. Unfortunately, they seem to be somewhat more rare than the "idea people".
- jason_tko 14y ago
  Right. And I'm saying that there's no better way to chase away the "real businessmen, men with the network, contacts, funding, good ideas and commitment", than by saying, "you are easily replaceable", and if I don't judge your network of people to be valuable then "I probably don’t need you". For anyone with the experience of working 20 hour days on the business side of a tech startup, this kind of statement is somewhat infuriating.
  - mgkimsal 14y ago
    It's infuriating on both sides, and I see where you're coming from with your comments here. I presume the OP wouldn't ever say "you're replaceable" to someone who actually has (and demonstrates) a network of any sort - it's the people who have no network whatsoever, but are seemingly unaware that that's important, and instead want to focus on 'an app!', that are the real red flags. Likewise, yes, many developers are also replaceable, though few like to think they are.
    - adrianhoward 14y ago
      I presume the OP wouldn't ever say "you're replaceable" to someone who actually has (and demonstrates) a network of any sort I think that the problem is the idea that "a network" is the only value that a business guy provides to a company...
      - mgkimsal 14y ago
        True, if that's the only value someone presumes the other party is bringing, that's a problem. OTOH, I think people undervalue the value of a tech/dev's network - including developers themselves.
  - po 14y ago
    As Jason's technical co-founder, I can say that a large factor in why I personally decided to start a project with him was because his skills were complementary (read: opposite) from mine. It is easy to overlook all of the non-programming work that goes into building a business. Could I have built a system that checked off all of the features of ours without him? Sure. But it would have sat there unused because it wouldn't have been informed by his experience and opinions, the customers and feedback he's brought in, the partnerships he's formed, etc… The days of 'if you build it, they will come' are over and there is a huge amount of work to be done for non-programmers. I think this is actually becoming more true over time… especially in the early days of a startup. You dont even really need a programmer to build an MVP anymore. I've met plenty of the people the original article is complaining about, and there is the caveat that there are exceptions to the rule, but there are plenty of naive, wanna-be developers as well. Non-technical founders live on a spectrum of capability just like developers. You should think long and hard about what will make you say 'yes I will be your technical cofounder' and more importantly: 'I need to do X to convince a biz-dev guy whom I respect to work with me.'
gryner 14y ago
Thank you, the criticism is completely valid. I updated the article accordingly.

marcusf 14y ago

This is going on like a broken record; No flack to the author, he got all rights to have his grievances. On the other hand, it feels like I've read this post before. One thing that always comes up in these posts is: > If we fail fast you have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work. I don't get that...? Presumably, the guy you jump in a boat with will also have invested 6 months of his life in to this, and presuposing he, even the abstract random business guy he in this post, can't contribute anything of value seems inflammatory at best? Finally, I think that we should recognize that this is a fantastic problem to have. If you're approached weekly about new business ventures, you've probably made a good name and good game for yourself. Which is fantastic.

tferris 14y ago
> ... have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work Well observed. The problem with good developers these days is that they have too high opportunity costs: a good developer earns as contracter easily between 130K und 180K USD, even more. Compared to a non-techie this is remarkable because there are many high priced offers in this range and developers don't need to present such a polished CV like their business counterparts (they can have white spots, breaks, stayed just few months somewhere, etc. and still get easily high paid dev jobs because of the shortage). And business people usually cannot do contracting work that easily. This paired with a generally more risk-averse attitude leads to statements like "If we fail fast you have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work". I remember those days when I had a high salary plus a full packages of perks—I was lethargic and haven't followed great biz opportunities because I thought they are too small and will never reach my current income. And comparing opportunities as a founder with your current income as contractor or employee is fundamentally wrong. Even the best brands like Google, free fruit and 180K+ salaries will never give you the same feeling and confidence as when you build own thing. But the most will never make this experience, they even won't realize that they are wearing golden handcuffs all the time.
- lrobb 14y ago
  Easily? The average salary for a google engineer is a little over $100k. I guess we need to define what is "good".

n9com 14y ago

You talk like you already have a successful startup of your own. Do you? Do you know how many great products backed by an amazing development team fail because they lack the skills in sales/marketing/design and/or strategy? If programming was the only thing that mattered, then why aren't all competent programmers millionaires?

kaolinite 14y ago
He didn't say that programming was the only thing that mattered. Of course it's not. However, there are tonnes of business people and not enough talented programmers. I think this sums up a lot of business types and why technical people are somewhat hostile towards them: http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/websites_stop/6.png http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/websites_stop/...
- n9com 14y ago
  There are not enough talented business people either.
- adrianhoward 14y ago
  However, there are tonnes of business people and not enough talented programmers. What I see is: * Tons of business people, not enough talented business people * Tons of developers, not enough talented developers ... the thing is that it's hard for talented developers to spot talented business folk among the throng. It's also hard for talented business folk to spot talented developers. I understand rants like this. I meet a lot of folk who don't have much of a clue about how much effort is involved on the development side. The thing is - if you go talk to the business folk - they have just as many horror stories of developers letting them down, not putting the work in, producing shoddy work, etc. Developers that come to them with what they think is a wonderful product - with no idea about their market or channels. The folk who think "sales" are just idiots who cold call people. Etc. Just a couple of months ago I was helping with a group who had spent £50k with what, to them, looked like a reputable development agency - and they essentially just threw that money away.

Fuzzwah 14y ago

@gryner: I checked your FB and noticed that English isn't your native tounge, so straight up I give you props for being able to communicate in a 2nd language waaaaaaay better than I ever will. However I found this article difficult to read. It was thought provoking though, so I just did a quick fly by edit. +++++++++++++++++ NO, I WON’T BE YOUR TECHNICAL CO-FOUNDER Hackers are becoming more and more like VCs, they often have to say "no". Last summer, just before the 500 demo day I attended an event which required me to fill in “company” on name tag. As I was there just to help out Zerply for less than 2 months I didn’t feel adequate enough use their name. I didn’t bother to write my consulting companies either as obviously it wouldn’t have said anything. I decided to go for “Hacker”. I don’t think I would have been forced to listen to as many pitches had I chosen “writing checks”. Every week I get approached by someone with a “game changing” idea. All they need is someone to execute it. “Hey, I’ve heard you are good at IT stuff, let’s start up!”. Well, no. I don’t know you. Startups and babies have one thing in common; you don’t do them with someone you just met. We will have to work together for years, sometimes 24 hours a day. Chances are we just met and you just handed me your card or at least I don’t know you well. How could I trust you with part of my business? There are thousands of issues that can ruin the relationship between startup founders, many of which can be foreseen. It might not even directly be your fault. Perhaps you have an over-controlling spouse that wants you home by 6 every day? If that’s the case, forgot about startups in general. I’m not passionate about the subject. Passion is the fuel that powers startups, it helps get through tough times and get things done. My passion is games. It isn't a hard and fast rule, but unless your idea has something to do with games I probably won’t be interested. People often approach me with a random idea they had, but without the spark in their eyes. That’s a sure sign of approaching failure and I’m not going to buy first class ticket on the Titanic. You expect me to invest at least 60 000€ It’s reasonable to for MVP to take 6 months. We could release an earlier version, just to be ashamed of it, but 6 months is probable. If we consider just 8 hour work days 5 days a week it totals about 120 000€ by my normal consulting rate. Time is money; why should I invest mine in your idea? And if I do, why should I accept only 50% or even less of the equity? After all, I have made an investment of actual work while you played around with excel spreadsheets and sent out a few press releases? Sarcasm aside, during first few months of startup development, hackers are doing all the work and taking all the risk. If we fail fast you have lost almost nothing whereas I have lost months of intense work. Your are easily replaceable. Let’s face it – good hackers are scarce resource. That’s why you are talking to me. However conferences, meetups and other places where startup industry players gathers to escape the daylight are filled with available marketers and business monkeys. Only thing you have is your network. As a “business guy” in a startup I expect you to have Barack Obama as a 2nd level LinkedIn connection and Zuckys number on speed dial. Well, anyway much wider network than I have. If you don’t – I probably don’t need you. There are exceptions of course, people who have already proved themselves, but that’s an entirely different ballgame. Experience in other fields does not matter – even if they come from tech industry, startups are nothing like your average business plan. “I don’t know the IT stuff” I don’t know anything about construction, medicine or farming. Common denominator here is, I’m not planning to do business in any of these fields. If you say outright that you know nothing about IT, it means you won’t respect nor understand my work, will set unreasonable goals and probably won’t be pleasant to work with. At least get some basic knowledge of the technical side if you want any hacker to take you seriously. And lose the darn tie. How to make me consider it. I can think of two cases where I have seriously considered taking the role and might actually do it at some point. One of them was a guy approaching me with an idea for a piece of software he desperately needed himself. Not desperately, but enough to invest money into it. He was straightforward from the beginning – he knew the industry, knew the problem and could provide the first clients and testers. Later on he hoped to sell it to some bigger player – not change the world/cure AIDS or eliminate hunger. It was barely a startup as he wasn’t hunting millions, just a quick cash and to scratch his own itch. Second case was a team of 2 developers asking me to be the third. They had a better business model and market research than most MBAs that have asked me to join. They also acknowledged that the task was so big they would benefit from having another set of hands. I can respect that. What did these two cases have that others haven't? First of all, I knew the people for some time, one of them for about 10 years. Secondly they had well defined goals and business models. You are not Steve Jobs, you do not have a reality disorientation field. Vision is not enough. I want to see numbers and research before I decide to make the investment of my time and effort. I am considering making separate business cards for people who want me to be their technical co-founder. They will only have a QR code on them – to this article.

kator 14y ago

The TVM (Time Value of Money) aspect here is the one most often issues under valued by "business types". That said it goes both ways, I've been a serial entrepreneur and a big corporate type. And it's clear that on the business side people work hard too if they are going to be successful and they too have a TVM problem. The biggest failure I see tech people make is not properly communicating the real level of effort a project takes. In a room full of techs if we talk about a problem we all have a reasonable understanding of how hard it is. We might be off a bit in our estimates but in general we understand the difference in effort of various proposals. When in a room of business people with no domain expertise we assume they understand what it's like to spend 100's if not 1,000's of hours working on a technical project. They don't understand it any more then most techs understand how hard it is to setup a company, get the business registered, shareholder agreements written, contracts developed, taxes handled etc. That issue however is a failure on both parties part, techs have to learn to own their half of the "assumption" problem. They need to clearly articulate how much work something is going to take and convert that effort into real dollars and timelines. True story a very famous musician friend of mine and I were talking one day and I asked him "How long did it take you to write that song XXX" (very famous song) and he said "Hmm a couple days here and there then in the studio.." we both agreed it must have been maybe a 60 hour commitment. Then he asked me about a project I had just finished with a major car manufacturer and I said "Oh that was 6 man years of effort". He asked me "What is a man year?" and of course I tried to explain in lay terms what it's like to have someone at a keyboard for 2,000 hours and do that with six people. He was blown away at the effort he literally would bring it up in future conversations for years when we would chat on various topics. In tech we take for granted that we work on labor scales that are massive and our failure to explain that to other people only makes the "startup conundrum" worse.

felixchan 14y ago

Here's the problem with silicon valley: Engineers think they rule the world. But in reality, product people rule the world. It doesn't matter if your other "non-technical" co-founder sits on his ass all day and you work your ass off...because you have to understand that one angle of perception--one simple spark of an idea--can create just as much value as your sweat work. "Point of View is worth 80 IQ points" When you wrote "Your are easily replaceable"...you are 100% wrong. YOU are easily replaceable. You're just the coder who builds the thing. Once MVP is launched and the company raises funding, you could easily be replaced because I guarantee you there are thousands of engineers just as good as you. The product guy, on the other hand, is the DNA of the company. He forms the vision, culture, management. You can't replace that.

JoeAltmaier 14y ago
Yeah, everybody in the chain thinks they are the critical link. The difference is, without a product the investors don't come easy. A hacker can make something, get it in front of users, maybe even get a sale all by themselves. So they have a natural inclination to see the other half as 'hire some marketing once I have something to show'.
- conker 14y ago
  Enlighten me, what's the product investors want? Is it your boring as hell slide deck? That overly optimistic spreadsheet? That oh-so-inspiring blog post about stuff not related to the product itself? Or maybe is the app the technical founder made?
  - georgespencer 14y ago
    Investors want a return on their fucking investment. That isn't just an app built by an asshole engineer who lives in a myopic world. It isn't just a spreadsheet showing projections for growth and a strategy behind it. Investors want a return on their fucking investment. To get that you need all the parts of your startup working together, and nobody wanking on about being valuable and stupidly and pointlessly generalising the work of others. Well done on listing a bunch of straw men. Is it your patchy account session controller? Is it your user View which specifies Arial before Helvetica in the stylesheet? etc etc etc.

georgespencer 14y ago

I'm sick of this sort of crummy linkbait. The exact same thing crops up every few months on HN. "Ideas are a dime a dozen! Engineering is the one true way! Execution is paramount! Reddit, here's a picture of my cute cat!" It's not black and white (the cat, or the matter in hand here). As a community, we all nurture fragile ideas. Some of them are big, bold ideas (like beating Google at search), but almost all of them are very fragile. People shouldn't labour on in delusion, but if you say the wrong thing to the wrong dispirited guy who has been thinking about a brilliant idea for three months, then you're going to harm rather than help. And you can help without investing your asshole consulting time. Nobody needs more assholes reflecting on their status within the startup landscape ("I'm a scarce resource") and denigrating people who presumably are coming to you to share ideas they're excited about ("available markers" – whatever that means – "and business monkeys"), whilst simultaneously insinuating that the work engineers do is somehow more vital or worthy ("I have [to] make an investment and [do] actual work while you played [sic] around with excel spreadsheets and send [sic] out a few press releases?"). Engineering is vitally important. But that alone does not encompass execution. An MVP (or a P) is the sum total of the amount of sheer thought that has gone into it from everyone who has worked on it or cares about it. Your asshole consulting code doesn't mean anything if it's a feature which nobody needs. A great software engineer contributes code and creative ideas which push a project on. A non-technical co-founder should protect their engineering team and contribute creative ideas which push a project on, whilst doing the grunt work required to push the project on (pay your taxes. Find an office. Do an angel raise. All the crappy ephemeral stuff that goes with a new startup). But most importantly they are there to care and nurture fragile ideas. The thing which I sincerely loved about this article was the last paragraph. And it's probably a charge which could be leveraged at this comment, but you should have reconsidered your entire post around the final paragraph. Instead of making it a polemic against curious people with ideas who want to share them with you, and telling them just why you're not interested in working with anyone ever, you should have helped people be more persuasive with those ideas in talking to highly technically literate individuals. Yes, there are countless people who believe they have ideas which can change the world. Yes, there are fewer engineers who can help them get there. What these ideas people need is someone who is prepared to help them realise they are at step 1 of 1.5m, and the most critical thing to do right now is get to step 2. That takes five seconds. It takes a pertinent question. It takes making them stop and think for a second. It doesn't take a list of vaguely offensive barbs and generalisations. Context: I am a semi-technically literate cofounder (HTML/CSS/JS, competent PHP).

felixjmorgan 14y ago

Christ, this was difficult to read. Completely delusional rant from someone who clearly has no concept of what goes into turning a start-up from a basement project into a commercial success. I'm not sure why you think an engineer has a lot more to lose than the business guy, the logic there is incredibly flawed. It also seems to have a huge air of superiority, which seems somewhat unsubstantiated when looking at your resume.

Swizec 14y ago

>Let’s face it – good hackers are scarce resource. That’s why you are talking to me. However conferences, meetups and other places where startup industry players gathers to escape the daylight are filled with available marketers and business monkeys. I used to think like this. Then I interned at Doublerecall. Seeing those business guys do their jobs ... I was figuratively blown away. I mean wow. They worked harder on business development than I have ever seen a hacker work on even their most favorite projects. Fact of the matter is, business work involves a lot of ... stuff. Everything is hands on, very little of it can be automated, you're dealing with people all the time and, to be perfectly honest, there probably isn't a hacker out there who could really work as a business guy. We're just too lazy. Nothing about taking tens upon tens of meetings a week says "replaceable" to me.

mgkimsal 14y ago
"However conferences, meetups and other places where startup industry players gathers to escape the daylight are filled with available marketers and business monkeys" The fact that we have a "startup industry" is slightly unnerving, and "players" in that industry even moreso. I suspect that both 'developers' and 'business monkeys' who try to get involved in this 'industry' and hang with the 'players' too much aren't the sort of people you want as part of your team. So, yeah, in one sense you're right to criticize the capabilities of 'business guys' attending 'startup conferences', but the same criticism might be levelled at non-business people at those same conferences. The truly capable - those executing in their chosen fields - probably won't be at too many of those events on a regular basis.
- brazzy 14y ago
  Are you trying to single-handedly exhaust the national scare quotes reserves?
peteretep 14y ago
Everyone else's job looks easy to people who don't understand the intricacies of it (as you've identified). If you're bitching about how a non-technical cofounder is easily replaced, you probably don't understand what they (are meant to) do.

JVIDEL 14y ago

Once I was talking to some ex-web1.0 "entrepreneurs" (if you could call them that) who wanted to build one of those no-funding accelerators and, get this: they couldn't make the website and wanted me to do it for them. For FREE... And these were supposed to be guys with experience FFS, one even had "computer science" on his resume, turns out he put that because his highschool had an above-average computer program. I had physics in highschool, does that makes me a physicist? of course not. There are biz-dev founders who really know their shit, can't even code a "hello world" but know a lot about how to get around problems, so they are a valuable asset. I talked to one during a meetup: he could answer any question you could possibly have about financing and banking. If I were building a payments service I would give that guy a call RFN and ask him to join. But lets face it: this gold rush has attracted a lot of me-too wantrepreneurs who can't even jailbreak an iPhone or make a Wordpress install, yet have no respect for IT and believe hackers are just the "kids" you convince to work for free and then give a fraction of a fraction of the pie...

pjmo 14y ago

Basically this boils down to: If you're looking for a technical co-founder to complement your skills, make sure you have built trust with someone, have done your research, and understand why your building something. So pretty much like every other position.

raarky 14y ago

It feels like this was written out of frustation. I understand the problems and points you have raised however, this post is probably not a very good idea if you value your reputation. When people google your name they might interpret this post as coming from someone rather arrogant. Just sayin' :)

bryanadams 14y ago

Speaking as a former startup founder, I can tell you that good business people are just as scarce as good hackers. It's just harder to evaluate business people (at least, it is for me). Also: it's important that all co-founders can present themselves as humble and self-aware. Using terms like "business monkeys" and saying "you played around with excel spreadsheets" made me wince.

padobson 14y ago

The biggest problem I see in these comments and in this post is that the assumption that the skills described exist in a vacuum. Product guys can only ever be product guys. Engineers can only be engineers. Business men can only be business men. If you work at a startup, you better be prepared to be all three and more. If you aren't smart enough to be all three, then you can't be my cofounder.

lrobb 14y ago

>>>After all, I have make an investment and actual work while you played around with excel spreadsheets and send out a few press releases? I don't even know where to begin... Such a gross misunderstanding of what a competent business development person can bring to the table. I know a couple of guys that I would gladly sign up with for equity, knowing they can take a product and bring in millions of revenue.

Schwolop 14y ago

The take-aways to pay attention to here are the upbeat and less snarky parts. Like that a good business guy is worth his weight in gold. I've been networking like a lady-of-loose-morals trying to find one, and it's just as hard as finding a good engineer. (Fortunately as to the latter case, I already are one.) As a result I've been doing the business development, customer seduction - sorry, acquisition - and networking required to get this done myself. It's really hard. Yes, there's a lot of idiots with business degrees and the first socio-loco-mobo-deals app idea that popped into their heads. There's also a few business minded geniuses hiding out there too. Don't dismiss them out of hand because of the oversupply of the others.

josscrowcroft 14y ago

I thought the author was smart enough (still do, actually) until I read this gem: "I am considering making separate business cards for people who want me to be their technical co-founder. They will only have a QR code on them – to this article." I don't know if I'd still be interested in a technical cofounder who used a QR code to tell me why I was mistaken.

captaincrunch 14y ago

Well said, I'm a co-founder from Verelo.com - we knew each other for a couple years. I can't imagine doing a start-up with a stranger... it'd never last. The amount of things that come up, and the stress... you need someone you know well. It's a roller coaster of a ride

asto 14y ago

Hackers can be great at running a business with a bit of effort. Ex: Google founders. Now show me one "product guy" who's coded and launched a million-dollar site/app. Both sides view the other as replaceable, only one is right.

georgespencer 14y ago
Yes, if only Kevin Systrom existed. Oh, no, wait, your argument is flat out wrong.
- asto 14y ago
  I didn't know of his background, so I googled. He learnt to code while he was working a job and his first startup came later? Anyway, he doesn't seem to have done much of interest before his first startup. The question rephrased: Show me a guy who has gone from being a success in management/finance to having a startup idea and then writing code for it (I think this is a fair equivalent of coder with no business experience founding a company and then continuing to run it when it becomes very profitable)
  - georgespencer 14y ago
    He worked in marketing and had ideas, so he learned to code to build them. Then the idea for Instagram came along, he built it, marketed it and sold it. "Management/finance" doesn't mean anything, other than excluding Systrom as a specific example which disproves your theory. You're asking to see someone who was successful in a non-technical role who had an idea for a startup and learnt to code to build it. Let me surprise you: very few people learn to code just to learn to code. Most people learn to code to scratch an itch. How many news stories have we seen in the last few years about people who learned to code simple addictive games for iPhone? In that sense, I'd argue that almost everyone learns to code because they have an idea they want to see happen. A lot of them go on to become full time software engineers. A lot of them don't.
dataisfun 14y ago
Heard of pinterest? Ben and Paul were not engineers. Ben's the product guy you so disparage.

nikcub 14y ago

A sweeping generalization of business and product people. I'll offer a counter example. This story starts over a decade ago. There was a high level executive at a large enterprise software firm. The guy was one of the best enterprise sales people in North America and highly valued by the organization. In reading about the trend of software moving online he realized that the industry he was in, selling large scale enterprise solutions to Fortune 500 companies, was eventually going to be replaced by software delivered online. He attempted to get his organization to shift into investing in online web services, but they saw it as a threat to their traditional business model. He quit work and then went to find technical people who could implement the visitation. He ended up recruiting a group of 8-10 developers, all sold on the vision. He wrote up a quick vision for the company and raised a few million dollars on the back of it. He leased out cheap and nasty office space down in the suburbs outside of San Jose. He spent two weeks writing a software specification for a new enterprise product that would be entirely web based. The spec was a couple of dozen pages long. He also wrote a marketing brief on how the product would be sold. He handed the spec over to the developers and then went on vacation in Hawaii for a few months while they built the initial version of the product. A few months later and with a first version he went out to the media and announced 'the end of software' and introduced a new web services model for the enterprise: salesforce.com. Over 10 years later and the company has a $20 billion market cap, defined an entirely new industry and threatened the business of his old employer (Oracle) to the extend that they setup a clone competitor. If the original developers who joined Marc Benioff had read this blog post, they would have questioned 'his contribution', especially the part where he took off on holiday. Product and business people are entirely undervalued. Benioff could have found the eight developers he required from any thousands of other developers to implement what he had in mind, but there was only one person who had the vision, perseverance and balls to do what he did.

jonnathanson 14y ago
This is well said (and, perhaps, a similar story could be told about Steve Jobs). But I think there's at least one point in the article that holds true: it's very tough to evaluate the credibility of a "business" co-founder until he's achieved success. A developer's talent can be measured and normalized; a business person -- before he becomes successful -- is a much riskier and more unknowable commodity. One way to look at things is to say that great businesspeople are undervalued. Another viewpoint is that the valuation of businesspeople carries with it a much higher risk multiplier. Or that the valuation has far fewer knowable variables. The article makes a variety of very unfair, broad, and naive generalizations about the role of a great business, marketing, or product person. It seems to conflate all business people into one bucket -- lumping the fly-by-night hucksters and phonies in with the true visionaries. And its point about how a business founder is 'only as good as his contact list' is a bit ridiculous. But unfortunately, that contact list is often the business person's best calling card. It's one of very few, knowable variables that he brings to the table. (A track record on paper is great, but can be unreliable, because anyone can spin a resume. Conversely, a list of impressive people who can vouch for someone, or even go to bat for him, is much more actionable).

humblebro 14y ago

Could bare only reading this half-way through.My man,you come off as pretentious,while at the same time you make mistakes like 'if that's the case,forgot about startups'and'track recors' just to point out a couple. And that would be fine,if you were not deluding yourself that you are some type of a hot shot master of the universe.

mtjl79 14y ago
You made a mistake. "Could bare" - I think you mean "barely". Also: You forgot a space after the comma every time you use one. So what where you saying about his article mistakes again? :)

jakejake 14y ago

I've been around long enough that I've had many, many such pitches. Some from serious business people and some from people with just an idea and no experience at all. I feel it's good to keep an open mind, but I do insist on an equal commitment from all parties involved. One way for the business person to do that is to raise the capital that pays our living expenses and operating costs for the initial development. If I'm on board, I'll tell them to use my name to show that we have a tech team in place. But if they can't raise any money then I don't usually see a point in beginning the development phase. This sometimes is a wake-up call to the person pitching. But even if the idea takes off, they will be spending a lot of their time raising money. So if they can't do it now, it's unlikely they'll be able to do it later when we need to grow the company. Of course like the OP I have to be at least interested in the industry or idea as well.

jefreybulla 14y ago

I agree for the most part of this article. That's why I advice entrepreneurs to go all-in and validate their idea before trying to find the perfect tech-cofounder. I recently wrote a post about "I don't find a technical co-founder what options do I have? ". I think you might enjoy it http://jefreybulla.tumblr.com/ http://jefreybulla.tumblr.com/.

mark_integerdsv 14y ago

Once I had a mad crush on this girl in my neighborhood. I spoke to my dad about it and he suggested I write her a letter. I told him I was nervous about what to put in it and I suggested that maybe I should write it, leave it, read it in the morning and see if I felt I could send it. My dad said something awesome that day. He said: "Mark, if everyone in the world thought like that-there would be no love letters." ...I can't help but feel that if everyone in the world thought like this guy-there would be no startups.

huhtenberg 14y ago

> Let’s face it – good hackers are scarce resource. That’s why you are talking to me. Oh, common. Get of your high horse already. Good business people are even scarcer and they are not talking to you. And in an off-chance that one of them approaches you, you might not realize it, because your horse gets in the way.

jhuckestein 14y ago

The tone is very harsh, but I agree with author's sentiment. Certainly there are exceptions, but in most cases I've seen the way "business" people approach technical co-founders is Yesterday I had someone who claims to be a tech entrepreneur tell me that they "don't care about that sh*t" and that "this is why you're an engineer and I'm not" while I was using the webkit inspector in chrome. You can see this attitude a lot and it has lack of dedication/passion an entitlement written all over. I'm sorry, but I know tons of non-techies that are able to understand, pick up and use this feature within minutes. Adults seem to have an unnatural aversion to learning. Kids are okay with not being able to walk, walk, do math, read, write etc and will spend years developing important skills. It baffles me why so many twenty-somethings already feel pigeonholed into the non-techie role and don't want to learn anything new, even if it allegedly is their greatest passion. If you spend only six months on it you'll be able to implement most webapps or mobile apps mvp. Sure, it'll suck, but you'll have an easier time finding a co-founder and the collaboration will be better. I have never owned a car. If I wanted to make a car company, my first step would be to learn everything about cars. I certainly wouldn't fo from garage to garage trying to convince random mechanics to quit their jobs to be my co-founder with 30% equity and no salary just because I have a car-related idea. The same goes for hollywood. I wouldn't show up to a film-related event and tell everyone my great movie idea (after all, I HAVE seen many movies) and ask for one director, one screenwriter, some actors, a bunch of other dudes and a ton of money. Disclaimer: I majored in Math AND went to business school. I also have a CS degree that I got mostly on the side, because I was interested in the high leverage of software businesses.

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zbruhnke 14y ago

As someone who recently made this mistake (and in a big way) I whole-heartedly agree with just about everything you have said here. I had already sold a company, I had proven myself both as a hacker and as someone with at least enough business acumen to close a deal without too many lawyer fees and come out with a good amount of money in the bank. Now that I have made this mistake I will probably never go into business again without knowing the person like the back of my hand. And they will almost certainly have to be at least as technical as me or be a domain expert of some sort. I'm sure some see the author as biased or scorned but for the most part he is right. "idea people" are a dime a dozen, but your idea with no execution = 0

rralian 14y ago

I am also approached like this pretty often and have many of the same biases. I was planning to write a similar (though less scathing) post myself. While the author makes some grand generalized statements that he probably doesn't really mean, I think they are born of frustration. There are just too many people who try to skip straight to being the "business person" without any experience to back it up. The typical person who just needs "a technical person" to build their vision... ugh. They ask to meet you for coffee, but then want you to sign their NDA. It's because they think their idea alone is their contribution of 50% of the business (or more), because frankly they have no idea what it takes. But they can't match my own skills and experience on the business side of a startup (and I'm the tech guy). The story of Marc Benioff in the top comment, that's the story of a credible co-founder. A successful person with years of knowledge and experience in a lucrative market... I salivate over that prospect. For me that's a no-brainer. So to you would-be biz-folk (talking to the n00bs here), just don't forget to pay your dues. Get a job at a startup and learn what it's like. Take some courses in programming and give it a shot. Learn all that you can about lean startups and customer development. Validate your product with a concierge MVP. Hire some college kid or cheap company in India to build your prototype. Show me that you have some traction and something to offer and can find ways to move forward even without the "tech guy". Then we can talk.

Czarnian 14y ago

I must be reading this differently than a lot of people. I don't think he's talking about actual business people. People with demonstrated experience, skill, and/or ability. It sounds more like he's talking about the idea tourist. The guy who truly believes that the secret to start-up success is: 1. Have an idea. 2. . . . 3. Make money. I think we can all agree that the idea tourist is annoying. If all you bring to the table is something as ephemeral as an idea, just keep walking. I've got no time for you.

arnoldwh 14y ago

Ha, you inspired me to write this: "No I won't Be Your Business Co-Founder" http://arnoldhur.tumblr.com/post/22794390635/no-i-wont-be-your-business-co-founder http://arnoldhur.tumblr.com/post/22794390635/no-i-wont-be-yo...

erikb 14y ago

It's so true, but in both directions and also in the direction of the design department. The thing is it's hard to find the real deal with all the people out there who are quite confident about being the real deal, while they actually aren't. Sometimes it's even hard to see yourself, if you are the real deal or not, because it's just so easy to talk yourself into believing it, while doing it is actually quite hard, right?

marcoi 14y ago

These posts (of which there are plenty) rely on the extremely common and (I think) extremely flawed assumption that company = technology + marketing/sales. Hence, great tech + great network = $$$. A company is first and foremost a product. Which involves understanding in a novel manner both your users and the technology to build it. Great product people can be techies, designers, "business people" (whatever that means), sales people, doctors and housewives. They are those who define the company. Secondly, a company is a team of individuals. Getting many people to work well together is very hard. Then there is technology, marketing, and finance and HR etc. Of course there are many "nontrepreneurs", but it gets boring to gripe about them. More importantly, I feel like an engineer who pidgeon-holes himself as a techie (and that's it) lacks ambition, and is unlikely to get senior in a successful startup. All techies I can think of who started a big one seem to prove this. (Signed: engineer AND business person)

Aloisius 14y ago

Dear OP, I know you wrote this article thinking, man, it is time to get some HN karma action. They will eat this stuff up! And indeed, there are a lot of people who upvoted you. Congratulations! And yet, this has to be one of the more egotistical, narcissistic, self-serving rants I've seen on HN. There are a lot of lately. They generally starts with the line, "Why I..." At least you didn't post one of those. Small favors I suppose. I'm sorry you're so in demand that people won't stop hounding you to join them and that it is just takes too much time for you to politely tell them no! How awful that must be for you. Engineers are not the center of the universe. The good ones are difficult to find, but good people of all disciplines are hard to find. I would chew my own arm off for a top tier sales guy who could build sales plans and execute them deftly. An bizdev guy who can maintain a large network and work them effectively and isn't a schmuck is worth their weight in gold. A product guy who actually talks to, understands and truly empathizes with customers? Far more rare than you are. At some point in your career, I hope soon, you will come to realize that non-engineers have value too.

kamaal 14y ago
I think his point is non-engineers can only add second level of value. Meaning you still can't make things. No matter what your are selling, you are still selling stuff 'made' by others.
- heretohelp 14y ago
  I'd agree...except Oracle exists. :|

dools 14y ago

We (programmers/engineers/developers whatever you want to call it) have a LOT to answer for. Evenly represented on the HN home page every few months are: 1) You don't need a programmer, you need a technical co-founder (aka. you can't pay someone to do this job because you can't possibly afford it) 2) I am sick of people asking me to be their technical co-founder The engineering side of tech have spend a good few years recycling each other's kool aid and we're starting to believe it. Hell we're saying the same bullshit over and over so much that even the non-tech side is starting to believe it. The problems that 90% of companies solve are not difficult. There are literally millions of people crawling the planet that can solve these problems and yet our inability to work together has created an entire generation of primadonna's like the OP that swan around like the bell of the ball.

dataisfun 14y ago

This discussions (which seem to happens as frequently as sunsets) are so petty and generally worthless. Lots of great businesses are driven by sales as well as code. One is either building or selling a product. And great talent in each department is hard to find. Yes, some consumer apps definitely require less "sales." But I'd wager there are lots more indignant engineers complaining about how much in demand they are than there are engineers who are actually building great companies. Stop publicly complaining and go do something successful.

kamaal 14y ago

Good people are difficult to get in any profession. Good Hackers, product guys, business guys, sales people are all difficult to get. The problem starts when every Joe at the end of the street thinks merely having an idea merits him to become a millionaire and guys who work that to happen are fundamentally easily replaceable slaves. This works the other way around too, if you are a bad programmer and you think selling is easy, and sales guy is unable to sell you bad product then your wrong. Execution is a art, no matter what is getting executed. Great execution is difficult in any walk of life. Just like how good hackers are a scare resource, so are good business people. In general good people are difficult to get.

kondro 14y ago

Ideas are everywhere and most aren't unique. The average "business" guy's ideas on implementation are usually quite crappy. If someone wants me to be their "technical" co-founder, I will want market-rate salary compensation and equity equal to the other founders and they better be well connected to sales & marketing and additional funding opportunities. They need me, not me them.

tylermenezes 14y ago

I always find it odd when I talk to a VC or someone about my startup and they're surprised that we've known each other for 5-6 years and have worked together before. I can understand having an idea and not knowing how to implement on it, but I can't understand trying to make a business out of that. I have many good ideas I'm not qualified to have. I either take the time to become qualified (how I learned programming in the first place), or just shelve them. I think that's the same reasoning which caused YC to do the no-idea thing. Ideas are cheap, the team is what's important. I guarantee someone had the idea of Twitter before Twitter.

EternalFury 14y ago

If I may add a few other considerations... 1) Age discrimination I am 40. You wouldn't believe how many "in urgent need of a tech co-founder" entrepreneurs recoil when they learn the fact. You won't fit in. You won't understand us. Blah blah blah... Umm...I assure you, if I can deal with half a dozen programming languages in my sleep, if I can run a family, if I am strong enough to run 30+ miles a week (on top of weight training), if I can complete my day job without swearing or sweating, I CAN UNDERSTAND YOU and I WOULD NEVER JUDGE YOU based on your age alone. I only care about what you got under your skull cap. 2) Do you know this? Do you know that? Can you solve that tricky trick we found on the Web this morning? I don't care. If you have a problem, I will research it. Before you have 2 problems, I will have picked all the knowledge I need to give you 1 solution. It could be something I already know. It could be something I never heard about. I am a human being. Adapting is in my DNA and I adapt all the time. 3) We got this great idea/solution, will you help us build it? I'm sorry, what is the GREAT problem (the GREAT problem someone will pay good money to address) you wish to solve? Honestly, guys, ideas are a dime a dozen, particularly ideas in the consumer space where a business model seems to be optional. What you need is knowledge about a tremendous pain/problem a lot of people want to spend money on solving. 4) Success is a conjunction of talents. I have great respect for business people, sales people, consultants, customer service people, patent lawyers, finance gurus, etc. They all do things that are essential to growing a sound business. Things I should not do. Everyone must bring something to the table and everyone must know and appreciate what everyone else brings to the table. Freeloaders sooner or later sink the ship.

hef19898 14y ago

After having read his reasons of why he wont be my tech co-founder I'm almost sure I don't want him as a co-founder neither. You are only in it for the money: If you can make 60k in 6 months consulting, than do that. I can't pay that much, I can't even pay myself that much. And if your only contribution to the next FB is only worth 60k you aren't good enough. You undervalue me / overvalue yourself: 50 % of equity aren't enough? I invest the same amount of time (which, by the way, also means money to me. Without a start-up I would make 90k a year as a employee...). A start is like a child, you know? 50-50 if it wasn't in-vitro. I don't know you: Who are you? Well, we just met... You are replaceable: Since you don't know the industry I want to develop a new product for I can take about just any developer. As an employee you may fit but not as aco-founder. I haven't proven myself: That's why I want to do a start-up. Proving yourself in business in a big corp means becoming a middle pointy haired manager. I'm not going to be one, hence my missing entrepreneur track record. You aren't passionate about it: I am, you not. Well, it is all about passion so we may just not match in this particular endeavour. Disclaimer: I don't even belief half of what I just wrote. Whoever finds irony can keep it :-)! Seriously, If you approach a future partner-in-crime like that nobody can help you anymore. Everything is to late and you REALLY are bad in business. But if you put any non-technical guy (general question: do you consider mech. engineers as non-technical, too? If yes, I don't like you anymore ;-)) in that category you aren't much better. And if you are that good that you don't need the a idea / business guy why don#t you just go ahead yourself? I already wrote things like that before, I'll repeat it now: You are looking for a person you will spend more time during the next couple of years than you own wife. Be carefull about who you pick, it is hard. Every party is risking the same, time, money, career. Youare in this together, so respect youself. And damn it, value your collegues! Respect them, as a professional AND a person. That's one of the reasons lot of peopla start start-ups, a lack of respect as an employee. And respect goes both ways. Mind that, if you don't the only thing you will be is cocky first and business or tech second. EDIT: In y erlier post (http://martingryner.com/how-i-screwed-up-my-first-business-model/ http://martingryner.com/how-i-screwed-up-my-first-business-m...) he wrote that: "Technology wont solve all your problems", I think he is right about that.