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You think the nice Christians wanted to get rid of it earlier, it just took them fifteen hundred years of active participation in it because it was difficult? R

You think the nice Christians wanted to get rid of it earlier, it just took them fifteen hundred years of active participation in it because it was difficult? Ridiculous. >You turn this around like it is the fault of the nice people that it didn't happen faster. No, I don't think Christianity is to thank for the abolition movement, I think other aspects of politics and culture led to it.

mistrial9 3y ago
please include Muslims in your thought process, in that case.
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  Ok, why didn't those Christians abolish slavery in the ~three hundred years between that schism and the birth of Muhammad? I always feel like this argument is almost closeted Islamaphobia, kinda reinforcing my viewpoint there.
- mistrial9 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery
elcritch 3y ago
> You think the nice Christians wanted to get rid of it earlier, it just took them fifteen hundred years of active participation in it because it was difficult? Ridiculous. It’s not about being “nice”. Neither is it not ridiculous if you consider the actual realities and complexities at the time. Almost every culture in the world has allowed slavery to some extent. The Roman Empire was built on slavery, and it took centuries for Christian thought to limit and then to begin to dismantle the institutions of slavery. Here’s a great quote from a Reddit post on the topic: > This is not a simple question, nor one that can be easily described across the entire empire. Christianity was a very diverse religious tradition even from the beginning of the religion's predominance in the Mediterranean. Early Church figures such as St. Gregory of Nazianzus, from the Roman east, launched attacks on slavery as an amoral affront to reason and rationality (Harper notes that this is the first extant attack on slavery in the Latin West, but I am not sure if that is true or not). Within the western parts of the Empire too there was pressure on the practice from Christian authorities. St. Augustine of Hippo, arguably the foremost figure of the 5th century for the Latin West, too pressured changes to the Roman attitude and approach towards slavery, he too condemned the practice as Gregory did and pushed for new attitudes towards enslaved people that emphasized the unnatural state of slavery on rational creatures. Slavery, in particular sexual slavery was the target of early Christian thinkers. They argued that it was a particular violation given the dimensions that were added on with the layer of ownership and slavery to the sexual exploitation of slaves. Harper argues that the Christian response to this was an extreme restructuring of Roman attitudes towards sex, in which the widespread availability of enslaved people was harshly curtailed, as attitudes towards the sexual exploitation of slaves were brought into the realm of official and cultural condemnation. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/17zxoj9/what_effect_did_christianity_have_on_slavery_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/17zxoj9/what...
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  >The Roman Empire was built on slavery, and it took centuries for Christian thought to limit and then to begin to dismantle the institutions of slavery "Centuries of Christian thought" happened before the two events I mentioned, things you ignored to quote someone saying a couple Roman Christians were against slavery.
  - elcritch 3y ago
    That's because I was replying specifically to your part about "1500 years of participation". Those two Roman Christians were both very influential thinkers on both Christian and European thought. Eventually direct slavery in Europe was largely eliminated long before the 1500's, at least slavery of Christians. Institutions like serfdom still continued, but there were limits on it. During this era no other major polities that banned slavery that I'm aware of. The traingular trade began in the 1440's and some Pope's even supported it at first. It took longer for earlier Christian thoughts against slavery began to be applied to non-Christians and among European colonies but they were eventually. Pope's began condemning enslaving Christians in the new colonies, and later ones condemned the Portuguese slave trade (part of the triangular trade). Many leading abolitionists in the British empire such as John Newton or William Wilberforce were directly motivated by their Christian faith and were very influential in outlawing slavery in the British Empire. It was similar in the US as well.
    - boomboomsubban 3y ago
      >During this era no other major polities that banned slavery that I'm aware of. Which reinforces my notion that it was other political and cultural shifts that led to abolition, not religion. The dominant religions have not drastically changed since that time, yet slavery eventually became intolerable. >The traingular trade began in the 1440's and some Pope's even supported it at first. It took longer for earlier Christian thoughts against slavery began to be applied to non-Christians and among European colonies but they were eventually. 1440 (really the 1490's at the earliest, 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue, but fairly minor) is already over a millennium since theanthropos became the standard belief. In that time, no real ideal of human rights had developed, and even the modicum of respect paid towards other Christians would soon vanish as the Reformation kicks off. Further, one of the major turning points for human rights in Europe, The Deceleration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, is about as unchristian as anything in Europe is capable of being. You're right that many early abolitionists were Christian, after several hundred more years of practicing slavery. Many of the predominant supporters of slavery were also Christian. When both sides are Christian, it's hard to think religion is truly the impetus.

mistrial9 3y ago

please include Muslims in your thought process, in that case.

boomboomsubban 3y ago
Ok, why didn't those Christians abolish slavery in the ~three hundred years between that schism and the birth of Muhammad? I always feel like this argument is almost closeted Islamaphobia, kinda reinforcing my viewpoint there.
mistrial9 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery

elcritch 3y ago

> You think the nice Christians wanted to get rid of it earlier, it just took them fifteen hundred years of active participation in it because it was difficult? Ridiculous. It’s not about being “nice”. Neither is it not ridiculous if you consider the actual realities and complexities at the time. Almost every culture in the world has allowed slavery to some extent. The Roman Empire was built on slavery, and it took centuries for Christian thought to limit and then to begin to dismantle the institutions of slavery. Here’s a great quote from a Reddit post on the topic: > This is not a simple question, nor one that can be easily described across the entire empire. Christianity was a very diverse religious tradition even from the beginning of the religion's predominance in the Mediterranean. Early Church figures such as St. Gregory of Nazianzus, from the Roman east, launched attacks on slavery as an amoral affront to reason and rationality (Harper notes that this is the first extant attack on slavery in the Latin West, but I am not sure if that is true or not). Within the western parts of the Empire too there was pressure on the practice from Christian authorities. St. Augustine of Hippo, arguably the foremost figure of the 5th century for the Latin West, too pressured changes to the Roman attitude and approach towards slavery, he too condemned the practice as Gregory did and pushed for new attitudes towards enslaved people that emphasized the unnatural state of slavery on rational creatures. Slavery, in particular sexual slavery was the target of early Christian thinkers. They argued that it was a particular violation given the dimensions that were added on with the layer of ownership and slavery to the sexual exploitation of slaves. Harper argues that the Christian response to this was an extreme restructuring of Roman attitudes towards sex, in which the widespread availability of enslaved people was harshly curtailed, as attitudes towards the sexual exploitation of slaves were brought into the realm of official and cultural condemnation. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/17zxoj9/what_effect_did_christianity_have_on_slavery_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/17zxoj9/what...

boomboomsubban 3y ago
>The Roman Empire was built on slavery, and it took centuries for Christian thought to limit and then to begin to dismantle the institutions of slavery "Centuries of Christian thought" happened before the two events I mentioned, things you ignored to quote someone saying a couple Roman Christians were against slavery.
- elcritch 3y ago
  That's because I was replying specifically to your part about "1500 years of participation". Those two Roman Christians were both very influential thinkers on both Christian and European thought. Eventually direct slavery in Europe was largely eliminated long before the 1500's, at least slavery of Christians. Institutions like serfdom still continued, but there were limits on it. During this era no other major polities that banned slavery that I'm aware of. The traingular trade began in the 1440's and some Pope's even supported it at first. It took longer for earlier Christian thoughts against slavery began to be applied to non-Christians and among European colonies but they were eventually. Pope's began condemning enslaving Christians in the new colonies, and later ones condemned the Portuguese slave trade (part of the triangular trade). Many leading abolitionists in the British empire such as John Newton or William Wilberforce were directly motivated by their Christian faith and were very influential in outlawing slavery in the British Empire. It was similar in the US as well.
  - boomboomsubban 3y ago
    >During this era no other major polities that banned slavery that I'm aware of. Which reinforces my notion that it was other political and cultural shifts that led to abolition, not religion. The dominant religions have not drastically changed since that time, yet slavery eventually became intolerable. >The traingular trade began in the 1440's and some Pope's even supported it at first. It took longer for earlier Christian thoughts against slavery began to be applied to non-Christians and among European colonies but they were eventually. 1440 (really the 1490's at the earliest, 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue, but fairly minor) is already over a millennium since theanthropos became the standard belief. In that time, no real ideal of human rights had developed, and even the modicum of respect paid towards other Christians would soon vanish as the Reformation kicks off. Further, one of the major turning points for human rights in Europe, The Deceleration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, is about as unchristian as anything in Europe is capable of being. You're right that many early abolitionists were Christian, after several hundred more years of practicing slavery. Many of the predominant supporters of slavery were also Christian. When both sides are Christian, it's hard to think religion is truly the impetus.