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FYI: No JIT on Windows 8 for ARM
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y agoI wonder if Windows 8 will be the death of the Windows platform. Horrible Desktop experience, great Tablet experience but no apps. But if Windows dies, what then can replace it? Will we see another XP, except one that goes unreplaced? Microsoft making a U-Turn? Or possibly, another Operating System? Android? Chrome OS? Ubuntu? Whatever happens, Windows 8, its launch, and aftermath will certainly be interesting, "good" or not.
- Derbasti 14y agoPeople have always complained about new versions of Windows. They bitch and moan and they cry and vouch never to touch it, but in the end, it does not matter. Most people buy a new PC every few years and it comes with some sort of OS and it looks different every time. Whether that was XP or Vista or 7 or 8, they won't know. And consequently, we can complain all we want, but if it comes pre-installed and IT departments like it, it will work. Don't get me wrong, Microsoft will die eventually (just like we all do), but it will be a gradual, less painful process. Maybe this is one of their last serious stabs at something exciting. But they will die of obscurity, not concrete failure.
- cageface 14y agoThat was then. This is now. There are real alternatives today, including not upgrading. Microsoft may come to regret making Windows 7 as solid as it is.
- CGamesPlay 14y agoNot upgrading is always an immediate option. You think Windows 7 will still look great 5 years from now? 10 years?
- cageface 14y agoXP has looked like shit for years already but people still cling to it like a tree in a hurricane. Ten years is way too far in the future to place any bets.
- robryan 14y agoAs one data point I was always the next upgrade until about 2006 or so when budget PC's hit a point that they would do everything I wanted as fast as I wanted. I mainly use a mac now, but my PC is probably 5 years+ old and does everything as fast as I would need.
- PeterisP 14y agoNot upgrading is an option if there aren't really critical issues. "looking great" is not one of them - only being compatible with multiple must-have applications would do it. WinXP + IE6 is still an option and it has been 10+ years already. If windows 8-9-10 sucks, then win7 can easily carry on for as long as hardware manufacturers keep shipping compatible drivers; and if windows 8-9-10 sucks, then they can easily do it for dozens of years.
- danssig 14y agoThat's not strictly true. People generally skip every other version of windows because somehow every other version sucks.
- Derbasti 14y agoRight, but that does not imply a move away from Windows in general. People 'update' whenever they buy a new machine or the IT department makes them update. Whether or not they skip a version or two does not kill Microsoft immediately but it does not save them either. I guess what I was trying to say was that Microsoft seems to be losing right now and they might just die in the somewhat near future. However, this will not be the direct consequence of a bad version of Windows or of people skipping a version. We have seen that before. People always complain about change, especially about changes in something they don't understand but have to use anyways. So people complaining about a new version of Windows is not interesting.
- danssig 14y agoOh I agree with that. If Vista didn't kill them (or even hurt them, really) I can't imagine this will either.
- nextparadigms 14y agoI do think Windows will seriously decline because of Windows 8, especially when you take into account all the other devices that now run Android or iOS. "PC's" or not, the fact remains that people are spending a lot of time on those "other" devices now, and as for what will replace it, I think a combination of all of those. I see Ubuntu becoming more popular and more consumerized, with popular games arriving for it. I see ChromeOS and Android gaining a bit of laptop market share. I see Macs gaining more market share, too. Governments and enterprises will increasingly use Linux or cloud alternatives. The point is, Windows will not have the monopoly it had for 15 years, and that's a great thing. We've been waiting for that for a very long time.
- pron 14y agoYes, but because native applications are here to stay, so it would seem, developers are in for a world of pain: writing your software for multiple incompatible platforms. This has been going on since iOS/Android at least, but it won't get any better soon.
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y agoWell, at least Windows 8 embraces HTML5 as a platform. They also have a new set of "Windows Runtime" (WinRT, not to be confused with Windows RT) APIs, which are consistent across all languages you can use to develop applications for it. Even JavaScript.
- pjmlp 14y agoOr the pain of having to deal with HTML, JavaScript and CSS working the same way across multiple browsers and OS. I'll take native development any day.
- eighthNote 14y agox86 windows 8 tablets will probably be fantastic, provided that the Atom processors are any good. They'll have both the great experience and apps.
- laconian 14y ago> provided that the Atom processors are any good Intel's halfassed efforts with the Atom really FUBAR'd the netbook. What a dog those computers are. The initial rabid enthusiasm that people had for Netbooks just set them up for a bad experience, which reinforced their prejudices against PCs predisposed them to flee to lag-free experiences like the iPad.
- Karunamon 14y ago>I wonder if Windows 8 will be the death of the Windows platform tl;dr: no. I see this as another instance of the Windows Rule in effect: Skip every other release. I will say I'm in the minority of people that likes the way Metro looks and acts even on the desktop. They'll get more apps come release time. Keep in mind, what we've all played with isn't even beta quality software.
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago>They'll get more apps come release time. You sure? They've had the Developer and Consumer preview out, yet they still have a practically empty store, and have been literally handing out checks to try and fill it.
- Karunamon 14y agoPretty sure. Personally, I'd be very, very wary of developing an app to target a pre-beta operating system.
- pgeorgi 14y agoCouldn't the various JIT languages piggyback on the CLR? That is, they wouldn't JIT to ARM, but compile to CLR and then execute that. Of course, that's some mighty overhead for "just one" platform.
- kevingadd 14y agoYeah, but there isn't a 1-1 correspondence between CLR bytecode and native instructions. If you want to access SIMD instruction sets on x86, x64 or ARM, the CLR won't let you do that.
- pgeorgi 14y agoIdeally the CLR takes care of that (it's in Microsoft's own interest to have it create good native code) I don't mean to translate "mov eax, ecx" to the CLR bytecodes of "ecx = eax;", but targetting CLR as kind of a CPU in its own right (with whatever capabilities it has).
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- jules 14y agoDynamic code generation is also disabled on the CLR in Metro. I ran into this when trying to port a compiler/IDE to Metro (i.e. NO reflection.emit/codedom/roslyn). It's basically impossible to write developer tools on Metro, in C++ or in C# doesn't matter. The best performing option is actually compiling to Javascript running in the browser...
- pjmlp 14y agoThis is just someone whining about not being able to use their favorite language for all tasks. Just use a language has implementations that target native code or MSIL, problem solved. A professional developer makes use of the best tool for the job, among the set of available ones.
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- kogir 14y agoNot entirely true. .Net and JS code on Windows RT will most certainly be JITed. All you need to do is target the CLR or JavaScript runtime.
- bad_user 14y agoYeah, try building a Javascript interpreter on top of the CLR. Compare that with V8.
- thedeuce 14y agouh there is already
- j_s 14y agoThat was my impression as well; if Mozilla really wants FireFox on Windows 8 it is not impossible technically. Mozilla is also 100% within their rights to complain that their implementation will be hampered in a way that IE will not be. The whole situation reminds me of how Microsoft Office and other Microsoft apps got in trouble for using undocumented Windows APIs ( http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=2007020819534335 http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20070208195343... ), except now they are upping the ante from undocumented to inaccessible.
- cooldeal 14y agoThe whole situation also reminds of me of how Apple never got in trouble for doing the exact same thing with Safari in iOS in spite of the iPad dominating the tablet market.
- teamonkey 14y agoIt's worth pointing out that the .Net Compact Framework doesn't support JIT right now. There's no guarantee that Win8Arm will have a .Net framework that supports JIT either.
- contextfree 14y ago
- josteink 14y agoHonest question: Is this any different from on iOS? Are you allowed to create native code-generators on iOS? If not, why do we all of a sudden care about this now?
- masklinn 14y ago> Is this any different from on iOS? No. > Are you allowed to create native code-generators on iOS? Absolutely not (unless you jailbreak of course). In fact, due to this UIWebView are not JITed either and in-application browsers have significantly worse performances than the standalone Safari application or pinned "offline web applications": the latter two are "opted out" of sandbox restrictions and can generate executable code at runtime.
- 5deadaccounts 14y agoMS need to be prevented from doing this because of their domination of the tablet market. (tablets are PCs you see).
- zhwang 14y agoIf this is correct, then this matters much, much more than the sensationalism surrounding browsers on WoA being unable to run as desktop apps. The entire focus of WoA is pretty much Metro-style apps, with Office on the desktop as something on the aside, so why would it matter that another browser can't place itself into the desktop? But if other browsers are actually going to be disadvantaged backend-wise, then that's something to worry about.
- flexd 14y agoAre Microsoft actively trying to lose customers? Why would we use this OS when there are open alternatives around?
- da_n 14y agoThe year of the linux desktop?
- freehunter 14y agoFor the same reason I have to use Windows at work. Because the corporate world, for the most part, is still Windows. Windows is easy to support, easy to get support for, and very enterprise-oriented. Linux is behind on the "easy to support" front (in Windows, you can tell a user 'click this, then click that. Don't underestimate the need for a clear and consistent GUI), and Mac is still behind on the enterprise-oriented front. Microsoft is the only one going after the enterprise desktop market, even as they're pushing further into the consumer market. This creates a catch-22, where corporations use Windows, so corporate software is written for Windows, and in turn, anyone who uses corporate software has to use Windows. If I send someone a .doc created in LibreOffice and they open it in Word, who knows what will change in the conversion. If part of your company goes open source, the entire company has to as well, for the sake of consistent performance.
- PeterisP 14y agoThis same reason can stop windows 8 from being adopted. A single, small legacy app that noone wants to maintain can easily delay OS upgrades in the organization for many years - that's why some companies still are on WinXP+IE6. If a single legacy app needs JIT-stuff, then that company will just run Win7 in year 2030 even if it looks like a stone age tool by that time.
- cooldeal 14y agoWindows 8 can run whatever programs Windows 7 can run. We're talking about Windows RT here, which is targeted at portable ARM tablets with high battery life. Your legacy app won't run on ARM anyway.
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- jheriko 14y agoI think the OP has jumped to a conclusion. In the worst case you should be able to write a driver using the DDK (some drivers will absolutely need dynamic code) to circumvent the problem. More likely there are things in the huge, in flux and poorly documented API that will let you do it.
- bgarbiak 14y agoFor those who read the title and started worrying that JavaScript will return to the stone age of performance: JS will be JIT-compiled on Windows 8 for ARM - but only in IE10. Furthermore, HTML5/Metro apps - unlike similar kind of applications on iOS - will be JIT compiled and hardware accelerated too. Source: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2012/02/07/high-performance-html5-content-in-metro-style-apps.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2012/02/07/high-performan...
- chj 14y agoAh.. why MS keep embracing Apple's stupid ideas
- HarshaThota 14y agoIt's rather easy for Microsoft to justify copying Apple when Apple keeps posting results like this: http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/24/apple-q2-2012-earnings-report-ipad-iphone-sales/ http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/24/apple-q2-2012-earnings-re...
- rwallace 14y agoApple's behavior has been consistently vile for the last three decades. They've been profitable of late because of kick ass design innovation. Smart phones, tablets, displays that finally have decent resolution, it was Apple who got all those things going, and that's what earned them the money. Microsoft has never been an innovator. Their strength has always been that by corporate standards they were on the side of openness, of choice of software running on commodity hardware that everybody could use. If they start copying the vile behavior and not the design innovation, I think they'll end up on a downhill slide.
- chj 14y agoexactly. MS is going crazy. They thought the reason apple gets popular is being a-hole.
- laconian 14y agoMicrosoft totally missed the opportunity to make something open and wonderful. Now, we're basically getting iPads, but with bright cyan colors and a chronic inability to fit huge 128pt words on one page. "MUSI" "PICTUR" "SOCIA"
- recoiledsnake 14y agoThe people wanting 'open' are going to buy Android tablets anyway, why would they buy Windows RT tablets? > Now, we're basically getting iPads, but with bright cyan colors and a chronic inability to fit huge 128pt words on one page. "MUSI" "PICTUR" "SOCIA" Looks like you're totally ignorant of the Metro UI design philosophy. Have you actually tried a Metro device or are you looking at screenshots?
- laconian 14y agoBuilding locked-down systems is not Microsoft's core competency. A big factor behind Windows' success was the massive developer support they received. With a few exceptions (like the undocumented ATL libraries), developers could do whatever the hell they want. They got a vibrant ecosystem in return. It looks like the same strategy is working for Android even today.
- codedivine 14y agoActually no jit for windows metro apps on x86/64 either
- throwaway54-762 14y ago"For W8ARM there'll be no … Java" There's always GCJ (http://gcc.gnu.org/java/ http://gcc.gnu.org/java/)!
- chj 14y agoi thought this is what MS could do better and a good chance for them. But they are doing Apple's doing, how can they compete with iPad then?