3 ms·

>Elon has a great diatribe describing how the big automakers largely broke down and outsourced most parts manufacturing For a company that purports to be an en

>Elon has a great diatribe describing how the big automakers largely broke down and outsourced most parts manufacturing For a company that purports to be an energy storage and generation business (with cars as an initial application), Tesla remains hugely dependent on their own suppliers. Panasonic occupies a major chunk of Tesla's own Gigafactory and has repeatedly delayed the production of new cells [0], [1]. [0] https://electrek.co/2024/01/15/panasonic-to-soon-make-new-batteries-for-tesla-could-reduce-ev-prices-report/ https://electrek.co/2024/01/15/panasonic-to-soon-make-new-ba... [1] https://www.reuters.com/technology/panasonic-delays-production-new-tesla-battery-improve-performance-2023-05-10/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/panasonic-delays-producti...

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Panosonic is trying to keep up with Tesla. There are technical challenges with the 4680 cell manufacturing process they are attempting to resolve that are leading to suboptimal yields. https://cleantechnica.com/2023/12/24/tesla-4680-battery-production-is-trapped-in-production-hell/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/12/24/tesla-4680-battery-prod...
- amluto 3y ago
  I’m no expert, but I do recall Tesla saying, at the beginning, that they were using 18650 cells because they were widely available. Well over a decade later, the major battery makers are producing prismatic cells in volume, and Tesla is still working on their fancy new cylindrical cell. I wonder if they’re doing this is due to some kind of design inertia at this point. Right now, I can buy US-assembled complete energy storage systems (not necessarily at volume), retail, using prismatic LFP cells, for a lower price per unit energy than the Tesla Megapack.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Tesla uses prismatic cells as well. You are no expert (as you said), and of course you can buy your own storage cheaper than turnkey utility scale systems. Energy developers aren’t building their own systems; they cut Tesla a check and install the asset (orchestrated by Autobidder). https://insideevs.com/news/542064/tesla-model3-lfp-battery-pack/ https://insideevs.com/news/542064/tesla-model3-lfp-battery-p... > Tesla uses LFP cells supplied by a Chinese manufacturer - CATL, which has basically become a strategic partner with a contract for the next several years. > Because the LFP chemistry does not offer as high energy density as NCA or NCM, Tesla uses LFP only in the standard range versions of its cars (produced in Shanghai and soon globally). LFP will be used also in Tesla's energy storage systems.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - matthewdgreen 3y ago
      This seems to confirm the initial point, which is that Tesla mainly outsources its most critical ingredient (batteries) to outside suppliers. Suppliers that are, incidentally, increasingly competing directly with its main lines of business. That might be ok in the car industry, where people will pay a premium for brand names. Seems bad if your goal is to dominate energy storage.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        No one builds energy storage at the rate Tesla does, so while this risk keeps being surfaced on HN ("but what about..."), until there is material movement from competitors, "meh." If it's so easy, by all means, do it. But talk is relatively cheap. https://www.energy-storage.news/tesla-deployed-nearly-4gwh-of-energy-storage-in-2021/ https://www.energy-storage.news/tesla-deployed-nearly-4gwh-o... https://www.energy-storage.news/tesla-deployed-6-5gwh-energy-storage-in-2022-thinking-carefully-about-next-megapack-factory-site/ https://www.energy-storage.news/tesla-deployed-6-5gwh-energy... https://carboncredits.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Tesla-battery-energy-storage-system-deployment.jpg.webp https://carboncredits.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/T... (Source: https://carboncredits.com/tesla-413m-megapacks-revolutionize-energy-grid/ https://carboncredits.com/tesla-413m-megapacks-revolutionize...) > Such tremendous growth has been particularly attributed to ramping up Tesla’s Megapack production capacity in its recently built 40 GWh Megafactory in California. The company aims to produce 10,000 Megapacks each year in this factory. > Earlier this year, Tesla also revealed plans to construct another 40 GWh Megafactory in Shanghai, China to meet the robust demand for its energy storage systems. Construction will start later this year. https://electrek.co/2023/12/22/tesla-launches-project-build-new-megafactory-china/ https://electrek.co/2023/12/22/tesla-launches-project-build-... The global market for energy storage is enormous, approaching almost half a trillion dollars by 2030. https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/us/Documents/energy-resources/us-energy-and-resources-global-energy-storage-renewable.pdf https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/us/Documents/... https://www.precedenceresearch.com/energy-storage-systems-market https://www.precedenceresearch.com/energy-storage-systems-ma...

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Panosonic is trying to keep up with Tesla. There are technical challenges with the 4680 cell manufacturing process they are attempting to resolve that are leading to suboptimal yields. https://cleantechnica.com/2023/12/24/tesla-4680-battery-production-is-trapped-in-production-hell/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/12/24/tesla-4680-battery-prod...

amluto 3y ago
I’m no expert, but I do recall Tesla saying, at the beginning, that they were using 18650 cells because they were widely available. Well over a decade later, the major battery makers are producing prismatic cells in volume, and Tesla is still working on their fancy new cylindrical cell. I wonder if they’re doing this is due to some kind of design inertia at this point. Right now, I can buy US-assembled complete energy storage systems (not necessarily at volume), retail, using prismatic LFP cells, for a lower price per unit energy than the Tesla Megapack.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Tesla uses prismatic cells as well. You are no expert (as you said), and of course you can buy your own storage cheaper than turnkey utility scale systems. Energy developers aren’t building their own systems; they cut Tesla a check and install the asset (orchestrated by Autobidder). https://insideevs.com/news/542064/tesla-model3-lfp-battery-pack/ https://insideevs.com/news/542064/tesla-model3-lfp-battery-p... > Tesla uses LFP cells supplied by a Chinese manufacturer - CATL, which has basically become a strategic partner with a contract for the next several years. > Because the LFP chemistry does not offer as high energy density as NCA or NCM, Tesla uses LFP only in the standard range versions of its cars (produced in Shanghai and soon globally). LFP will be used also in Tesla's energy storage systems.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - matthewdgreen 3y ago
    This seems to confirm the initial point, which is that Tesla mainly outsources its most critical ingredient (batteries) to outside suppliers. Suppliers that are, incidentally, increasingly competing directly with its main lines of business. That might be ok in the car industry, where people will pay a premium for brand names. Seems bad if your goal is to dominate energy storage.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      No one builds energy storage at the rate Tesla does, so while this risk keeps being surfaced on HN ("but what about..."), until there is material movement from competitors, "meh." If it's so easy, by all means, do it. But talk is relatively cheap. https://www.energy-storage.news/tesla-deployed-nearly-4gwh-of-energy-storage-in-2021/ https://www.energy-storage.news/tesla-deployed-nearly-4gwh-o... https://www.energy-storage.news/tesla-deployed-6-5gwh-energy-storage-in-2022-thinking-carefully-about-next-megapack-factory-site/ https://www.energy-storage.news/tesla-deployed-6-5gwh-energy... https://carboncredits.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Tesla-battery-energy-storage-system-deployment.jpg.webp https://carboncredits.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/T... (Source: https://carboncredits.com/tesla-413m-megapacks-revolutionize-energy-grid/ https://carboncredits.com/tesla-413m-megapacks-revolutionize...) > Such tremendous growth has been particularly attributed to ramping up Tesla’s Megapack production capacity in its recently built 40 GWh Megafactory in California. The company aims to produce 10,000 Megapacks each year in this factory. > Earlier this year, Tesla also revealed plans to construct another 40 GWh Megafactory in Shanghai, China to meet the robust demand for its energy storage systems. Construction will start later this year. https://electrek.co/2023/12/22/tesla-launches-project-build-new-megafactory-china/ https://electrek.co/2023/12/22/tesla-launches-project-build-... The global market for energy storage is enormous, approaching almost half a trillion dollars by 2030. https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/us/Documents/energy-resources/us-energy-and-resources-global-energy-storage-renewable.pdf https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/us/Documents/... https://www.precedenceresearch.com/energy-storage-systems-market https://www.precedenceresearch.com/energy-storage-systems-ma...