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It must be fun to be paid millions to write boilerplate "our incredible journey" garbage and pretend it's serious. They just announced 7% growth sales forecast

by Spivak 3y ago

It must be fun to be paid millions to write boilerplate "our incredible journey" garbage and pretend it's serious. They just announced 7% growth sales forecast prior to the layoffs, they aren't a struggling company that needs to buy more runaway. God I just wish one executive had the balls to say, "yeah we're culling 8% of our staff largely randomly because we estimated our dead weight is greater than that." It would at least treat employees as adults that can have adult conversations and take bad news. The only hard decision was where to celebrate after because the stock bump.

xp84 3y ago
It doesn’t seem like you’ve gotten to know anybody who’s implemented a RIF. I have and every manager involved right up to the CEO fucking hates the whole thing. It makes you sick to your stomach, and they realize that no matter how much they hate doing it, many of those affected will still think they’re callous jerks for it. It’s just business.
- dirtybirdnj 3y ago
  it's not the action it's the lack of accountability for the action none of the people swinging the axe face any pain for their bad decisions. people under them working as hard as they could face the consequences of decisions made above their head and out of their control. no contrition, no sincerity, no humanity. the C level has failed us and we keep celebrating their narcissism and psychopathy. we cannot keep celebrating this behavior. it needs to have negative financial consequences or the "bad optics" will forever just be a cost of doing business we need adults in charge and we have pathetic children
  - op00to 3y ago
    > none of the people swinging the axe face any pain for their bad decisions You think there is not one manager involved in layoffs that faced personal grief over firing people?
    - andrekandre 3y ago
      > You think there is not one manager involved in layoffs that faced personal grief over firing people? i think they meant "repercussions" (aka also loosing their job or demotion etc) when they said "pain" not something personal or emotional....
    - blululu 3y ago
      I think Zoom was the one company that paired layoffs with reductions in executive compensation. Beyond that one example all of those executives faced $0 worth of personal grief over their actions.
    - dirtybirdnj 3y ago
      > You think there is not one manager involved in layoffs that faced personal grief over firing people? I am 100% confident that the people who feel "personal grief" over this are extremely well compensated. They have a secure housing situation where they are not afraid of "where will I sleep, where will my next meal come from?" Trivializing the damage these people are inflicting on others for no reason other than "the board wants more money" is disrespectful at best. it's morally reprehensible to anybody with a functioning conscience who understands ethics.
      - xp84 3y ago
        Again I have to question: why do you feel like most of these experienced, skilled white-collar workers are housing insecure, and worried about their next meal upon getting laid off with severance? The only alternative to having layoffs be a fact of life and business is for companies to provide “jobs for life” regardless of profitability or business results. Businesses who do this don’t exist outside of uncompetitive state-owned firms which need to be propped up by state spending (taxpayers).
        dirtybirdnj 3y ago
        > Again I have to question: why do you feel like most of these experienced, skilled white-collar workers I worked at a tech startup in NYC that employed many local people in several different non-technical blue collar roles. They were some of the first to go when things weren't even over but sudden changes started occurring. Last time we ever saw the cleaning ladies was at a holiday party. All the developers still had jobs (me included) but the other team yeah we are moving what they do to another state. Ok now switch everything to mongodb and we have to decentralize our API because it's gotta run over there. Unprecedented fad layoffs are having downstream implications on the job market, my experience was almost 8yrs ago. Yes most of the developers will be fine but the people that are on the margins will suffer first. > The only alternative to having layoffs be a fact of life and business is for companies to provide “jobs for life” What I want is less "thank you for your sacrifice" and more "this happened on my watch. I made a bad call. I am doing X so that the remaining hardworking people can continue the mission with/without me" Was it just a bad luck / market forces, or was it an unplanned / risky bet? That to me determines with/without. Sunshine cures all.
  - xp84 3y ago
    CEOs get ousted all the time. Yes, most are rich enough that they won’t be ruined financially, but anyway, if you want to live in a society that doesn’t believe anyone should ever be allowed to be rich, just say so. Or, should they be imprisoned? What would sufficient ‘accountability’ look like? CEOs have reputations, and they do better with their future opportunities when they “turn around” a company or grow it, vs liquidate one. And ‘growing’ includes the situation where the 90% who aren’t laid off share in that success. But it’s weird to me to imply that executives should be godlike in their ability to predict the future such that downsizing in any form isn’t ever necessary (and that any failure to do so is a sin that needs to be punished). If a ship encounters rough waters and is in danger of not making it to their destination (in this case, ROI), the captain and first mate shouldn’t automatically jump overboard in contrition. (yes, in this metaphor, they are throwing a few of the crew overboard, but I think severance = lifeboats so I’m ok with it). They should do what it takes to preserve the ship. That’s their job. (And neither in the metaphor nor real life is “eliminating most of the crew” something they do, everyone accepts that the crew are valuable, and to be preserved) I think it’s unrealistic to expect any corporate governance to meet your apparent criteria, that in the event of any RIF the C-suite must all be sacked and their personal wealth set to the median wealth of the rank-and-file at that company. Nobody is stopping anyone from setting up such a company and having that in contractual agreements with all their executives, though. It would be an interesting experiment.
- coldpie 3y ago
  > I have and every manager involved right up to the CEO fucking hates the whole thing. It makes you sick to your stomach Poor baby. I wonder if he can find something to do with his $4.3M annual compensation to console himself. https://simplywall.st/stocks/us/consumer-durables/nyse-sony/sony-group/management https://simplywall.st/stocks/us/consumer-durables/nyse-sony/...
FpUser 3y ago
>"God I just wish one executive had the balls to say, "yeah we're culling 8% of our staff largely randomly because we estimated our dead weight is greater than that." It would at least treat employees as adults that can have adult conversations and take bad news." Employees could see things for what those are. Spelling it out will not make any difference for them. For executive statement like this could be reason to join that terminated crowd.
- dirtybirdnj 3y ago
  > Spelling it out will not make any difference for them. For executive statement like this could be reason to join that terminated crowd. So because "it already happened" we should just "get over it and stop making a big deal?" Unless the executive is stepping down and taking responsibility for the employees losing their jobs, it's empty platitudes. The C-level folks that made these mistakes will do it again. And more people will suffer... will lose their jobs... and be offered thoughts and prayers. This is not adult behavior. It's schoolyard children bully bullshit. Trying to paper over it because money is involved is just a deflection of responsibility.
  - FpUser 3y ago
    >"So because "it already happened" we should just "get over it and stop making a big deal?"" You can keep making your "big deal" as much as you want. They do not give a flying fuck. They just have to be legal and that is it.
    - dirtybirdnj 3y ago
      I feel like companies would have difficulty hiring employees if they treated the opening interaction with the same hostility they end it. You're not wrong FpUser https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6BYzLIqKB8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6BYzLIqKB8

by Spivak 3y ago

xp84 3y ago

It doesn’t seem like you’ve gotten to know anybody who’s implemented a RIF. I have and every manager involved right up to the CEO fucking hates the whole thing. It makes you sick to your stomach, and they realize that no matter how much they hate doing it, many of those affected will still think they’re callous jerks for it. It’s just business.

dirtybirdnj 3y ago
it's not the action it's the lack of accountability for the action none of the people swinging the axe face any pain for their bad decisions. people under them working as hard as they could face the consequences of decisions made above their head and out of their control. no contrition, no sincerity, no humanity. the C level has failed us and we keep celebrating their narcissism and psychopathy. we cannot keep celebrating this behavior. it needs to have negative financial consequences or the "bad optics" will forever just be a cost of doing business we need adults in charge and we have pathetic children
- op00to 3y ago
  > none of the people swinging the axe face any pain for their bad decisions You think there is not one manager involved in layoffs that faced personal grief over firing people?
  - andrekandre 3y ago
    > You think there is not one manager involved in layoffs that faced personal grief over firing people? i think they meant "repercussions" (aka also loosing their job or demotion etc) when they said "pain" not something personal or emotional....
  - blululu 3y ago
    I think Zoom was the one company that paired layoffs with reductions in executive compensation. Beyond that one example all of those executives faced $0 worth of personal grief over their actions.
  - dirtybirdnj 3y ago
    > You think there is not one manager involved in layoffs that faced personal grief over firing people? I am 100% confident that the people who feel "personal grief" over this are extremely well compensated. They have a secure housing situation where they are not afraid of "where will I sleep, where will my next meal come from?" Trivializing the damage these people are inflicting on others for no reason other than "the board wants more money" is disrespectful at best. it's morally reprehensible to anybody with a functioning conscience who understands ethics.
    - xp84 3y ago
      Again I have to question: why do you feel like most of these experienced, skilled white-collar workers are housing insecure, and worried about their next meal upon getting laid off with severance? The only alternative to having layoffs be a fact of life and business is for companies to provide “jobs for life” regardless of profitability or business results. Businesses who do this don’t exist outside of uncompetitive state-owned firms which need to be propped up by state spending (taxpayers).
      - dirtybirdnj 3y ago
        > Again I have to question: why do you feel like most of these experienced, skilled white-collar workers I worked at a tech startup in NYC that employed many local people in several different non-technical blue collar roles. They were some of the first to go when things weren't even over but sudden changes started occurring. Last time we ever saw the cleaning ladies was at a holiday party. All the developers still had jobs (me included) but the other team yeah we are moving what they do to another state. Ok now switch everything to mongodb and we have to decentralize our API because it's gotta run over there. Unprecedented fad layoffs are having downstream implications on the job market, my experience was almost 8yrs ago. Yes most of the developers will be fine but the people that are on the margins will suffer first. > The only alternative to having layoffs be a fact of life and business is for companies to provide “jobs for life” What I want is less "thank you for your sacrifice" and more "this happened on my watch. I made a bad call. I am doing X so that the remaining hardworking people can continue the mission with/without me" Was it just a bad luck / market forces, or was it an unplanned / risky bet? That to me determines with/without. Sunshine cures all.
- xp84 3y ago
  CEOs get ousted all the time. Yes, most are rich enough that they won’t be ruined financially, but anyway, if you want to live in a society that doesn’t believe anyone should ever be allowed to be rich, just say so. Or, should they be imprisoned? What would sufficient ‘accountability’ look like? CEOs have reputations, and they do better with their future opportunities when they “turn around” a company or grow it, vs liquidate one. And ‘growing’ includes the situation where the 90% who aren’t laid off share in that success. But it’s weird to me to imply that executives should be godlike in their ability to predict the future such that downsizing in any form isn’t ever necessary (and that any failure to do so is a sin that needs to be punished). If a ship encounters rough waters and is in danger of not making it to their destination (in this case, ROI), the captain and first mate shouldn’t automatically jump overboard in contrition. (yes, in this metaphor, they are throwing a few of the crew overboard, but I think severance = lifeboats so I’m ok with it). They should do what it takes to preserve the ship. That’s their job. (And neither in the metaphor nor real life is “eliminating most of the crew” something they do, everyone accepts that the crew are valuable, and to be preserved) I think it’s unrealistic to expect any corporate governance to meet your apparent criteria, that in the event of any RIF the C-suite must all be sacked and their personal wealth set to the median wealth of the rank-and-file at that company. Nobody is stopping anyone from setting up such a company and having that in contractual agreements with all their executives, though. It would be an interesting experiment.
coldpie 3y ago
> I have and every manager involved right up to the CEO fucking hates the whole thing. It makes you sick to your stomach Poor baby. I wonder if he can find something to do with his $4.3M annual compensation to console himself. https://simplywall.st/stocks/us/consumer-durables/nyse-sony/sony-group/management https://simplywall.st/stocks/us/consumer-durables/nyse-sony/...

FpUser 3y ago

>"God I just wish one executive had the balls to say, "yeah we're culling 8% of our staff largely randomly because we estimated our dead weight is greater than that." It would at least treat employees as adults that can have adult conversations and take bad news." Employees could see things for what those are. Spelling it out will not make any difference for them. For executive statement like this could be reason to join that terminated crowd.

dirtybirdnj 3y ago
> Spelling it out will not make any difference for them. For executive statement like this could be reason to join that terminated crowd. So because "it already happened" we should just "get over it and stop making a big deal?" Unless the executive is stepping down and taking responsibility for the employees losing their jobs, it's empty platitudes. The C-level folks that made these mistakes will do it again. And more people will suffer... will lose their jobs... and be offered thoughts and prayers. This is not adult behavior. It's schoolyard children bully bullshit. Trying to paper over it because money is involved is just a deflection of responsibility.
- FpUser 3y ago
  >"So because "it already happened" we should just "get over it and stop making a big deal?"" You can keep making your "big deal" as much as you want. They do not give a flying fuck. They just have to be legal and that is it.
  - dirtybirdnj 3y ago
    I feel like companies would have difficulty hiring employees if they treated the opening interaction with the same hostility they end it. You're not wrong FpUser https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6BYzLIqKB8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6BYzLIqKB8