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I actually think this is the opposite of noble savage imagery, and that's actually what you're doing. They're not saying things were better in the past when tec

I actually think this is the opposite of noble savage imagery, and that's actually what you're doing. They're not saying things were better in the past when technology was more primative, you're the one saying that the past was better and that getting to where we are now how we have is "screwing up" something (presumably a good thing that existed in the past that is no longer present).

r3d0c 3y ago
lol that's definitely not what he's doing, way to miss the point unless you're actually arguing for toxic chemicals in the water that didn't exist more than 60 years ago
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  > way to miss the point All of those commenters deconstructing my clumsy use of "Noble Savage" (I admit it's not quite the right thing) - are indeed (maybe wilfully) missing the point. A better expression might be the "Parochialism of the present". But that doesn't quite get to it. Nor even Thomas Hobbes' flowery and overblown conceit of past life as "Nasty, brutish and short". It's about a phenomenon of lionising a one dimensional idea of "progress" in a patently self-deceiving way.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
bowsamic 3y ago
Noble savage doesn't mean that you think the environment of the past was better than the present, it means that you think the people were better before being corrupted by civilisation. I.e. it's about thinking that the changing environment under progress corrupts humans, which is the opposite of what the person you are replying to is saying and is exactly what the person they're replying to is saying... Noble savage = humans fundamentally corrupted by civilisational progress
nonrandomstring 3y ago
Then I am mistaken in my labelling. Maybe something more like the "pathetic savage"? Or what other name might we give to this phenomenon of dismissing extinction level mistakes with the appeal to the idea that "hey, it's progress"?
- stuartjohnson12 3y ago
  I think "bad tradeoffs" is the term you're looking for. If you think the negative outcome has infinite negative value, there's not really a lot that can be said to that as it becomes a Pascal's wager. If you don't acknowledge any of the tradeoffs involved in pollution and instead just make a point about harm in a vacuum, it's hard to know how to consider it.
  - nonrandomstring 3y ago
    No, I think everyone recognises tradeoffs here and your belief that I'm creating a dichotomy is unwarranted. I'm addressing distorted perception of the parameters of tradeoffs. Like the overwhelming exceptionalism of how we all care about the environment and the future health of our children... just don't take our gas-guzzling cars and non-stick pans way! We are not rational beings, but we so deeply believe we are.
    - Geisterde 3y ago
      Im on my 4th electric car, every single one has been remarkable in terms of cost, build quality, innovation etc. If the cybertruck was out a year earlier, I suspect I know a few people driving "gas guzzling" trucks that would have bought that instead, because it would have been cheaper, faster, and in almost every measurable and unmeasurable quality, better. Why do you think people will forever hold on to ICE? It strikes me that electric cars are a step change in almost every way, maybe the reason people still have ICE is they didnt have a compatible electric alternative at the time.

r3d0c 3y ago

lol that's definitely not what he's doing, way to miss the point unless you're actually arguing for toxic chemicals in the water that didn't exist more than 60 years ago

nonrandomstring 3y ago
> way to miss the point All of those commenters deconstructing my clumsy use of "Noble Savage" (I admit it's not quite the right thing) - are indeed (maybe wilfully) missing the point. A better expression might be the "Parochialism of the present". But that doesn't quite get to it. Nor even Thomas Hobbes' flowery and overblown conceit of past life as "Nasty, brutish and short". It's about a phenomenon of lionising a one dimensional idea of "progress" in a patently self-deceiving way.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

bowsamic 3y ago

Noble savage doesn't mean that you think the environment of the past was better than the present, it means that you think the people were better before being corrupted by civilisation. I.e. it's about thinking that the changing environment under progress corrupts humans, which is the opposite of what the person you are replying to is saying and is exactly what the person they're replying to is saying... Noble savage = humans fundamentally corrupted by civilisational progress

nonrandomstring 3y ago

Then I am mistaken in my labelling. Maybe something more like the "pathetic savage"? Or what other name might we give to this phenomenon of dismissing extinction level mistakes with the appeal to the idea that "hey, it's progress"?

stuartjohnson12 3y ago
I think "bad tradeoffs" is the term you're looking for. If you think the negative outcome has infinite negative value, there's not really a lot that can be said to that as it becomes a Pascal's wager. If you don't acknowledge any of the tradeoffs involved in pollution and instead just make a point about harm in a vacuum, it's hard to know how to consider it.
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  No, I think everyone recognises tradeoffs here and your belief that I'm creating a dichotomy is unwarranted. I'm addressing distorted perception of the parameters of tradeoffs. Like the overwhelming exceptionalism of how we all care about the environment and the future health of our children... just don't take our gas-guzzling cars and non-stick pans way! We are not rational beings, but we so deeply believe we are.
  - Geisterde 3y ago
    Im on my 4th electric car, every single one has been remarkable in terms of cost, build quality, innovation etc. If the cybertruck was out a year earlier, I suspect I know a few people driving "gas guzzling" trucks that would have bought that instead, because it would have been cheaper, faster, and in almost every measurable and unmeasurable quality, better. Why do you think people will forever hold on to ICE? It strikes me that electric cars are a step change in almost every way, maybe the reason people still have ICE is they didnt have a compatible electric alternative at the time.