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Yes, because if Safari was as good at supporting PWAs as Android and Chrome you would see developers abandoning the App Store in droves for PWAs like how they

Yes, because if Safari was as good at supporting PWAs as Android and Chrome you would see developers abandoning the App Store in droves for PWAs like how they decide not to create apps for Android and just use PWAs… This is especially true for the pay to win games where 90% of App Store revenue comes from. That’s why most game app developers choose to use PWAs to avoid the “Google tax”. Wait…none of that is true today. The year of the PWA is the new “year of Linux on the desktop”. No user is asking for web apps anymore than they are clamoring for the next great Electron app on the desktop

over_byte 3y ago
Electron is a useful hack with the same resource problems as Chrome rather than an ideal solution. More the point though, PWAs are part of the existing web ecosystem. Apple has dragged its heels bringing Safari and their Webview up to spec on anything that might damage the AppStore ecosystem for years. They've also forced browser developers to use their webview instead of the browser's engines and has kept the API broken for functionality which they support in Safari - I mean try running a webrtc application in both safari and either chrome or firefox on iOS and see the problems. By enforcing the Webview on everyone they also ensure that all web developers need to have a mac to debug Safari specific issues that happen on a level unseen since IE7. The EU is simply telling Apple they can't leverage this anti-competitive behaviour, just like they rightly did for Microsoft in the 90s and Apple are just trying to salt the earth in the EU. It's a joke
- scarface_74 3y ago
  And you still didn’t dispute anything I said. If it’s only Apple keeping the wonderful world of PWAs back, why are the same companies that create iOS apps creating Android apps instead of just creating a PWA?
  - thomas-guettler 3y ago
    Reason 1: This would confuse users. Reason 2: it's easier to use a tool like Cordova and create an Android and iOS app.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      It would confuse all of the users that have both Android and iOS phones???
pests 3y ago
Users don't know or care where they get their apps from. Web vs native, they don't care. If letting PWAs be made better and cheaper... users will benefit.
dspillett 3y ago
> The year of the PWA is the new “year of Linux on the desktop”. Because Apple, a large part of the market, are actively fighting to stop it. > No user is asking for web apps And they shouldn't. They should not have to care if their app is a PWA or not. Developers need to care so they use the right tool for the job (native if they need the benefits offered by that, such as a performance boost or device wide access, PWA in most other cases where cross-platform concerns are more important than that) but the user shouldn't have to clamour for either.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  So because Apple ID fighting it, companies aren’t creating PWAs for Android to avoid the “Google tax”? Cross platform concerns and worse performance are never a benefit to the user.
  - dspillett 3y ago
    Firstly, I said absolutely nothing about any “Google Tax”. If companies are creating PWAs to avoid appstore tax are doing it to avoid Apple Tax as well as Google Tax. I ignored that straw man in your previous post. The problem is developers who want to easily create cross-platform apps and games, who are finding it harder to do so because Apple won't let them, because the tool they want to use might reduce Apple's ability to unfairly tax developers. Apple tax is the why. Apple potentially inconveniencing everyone by breaking existing features in a hissy-fit is the how.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      It’s not a straw man at all. The main motivation according to people on HN is creating a PWA helps avoid the “Apple tax”. If PWAs are good enough on Android, why wouldn’t developers be motivated to avoid the “Google tax” even if they couldn’t avoid the Apple tax? On that same note, since most companies create a website anyway, why not just tell Android users to use a web app instead of also creating an Android app? And as far as games, most game makers make money from in app purchases of loot boxes and coins for pay to win games (this came out in the various Epic vs Apple trials). As much as they whine about the “Apple tax” they love having direct access to whale’s wallets via in app purchases. And no they aren’t just going to get users to fork over their credit cards to random sites and there are plenty of people especially kids who have access to the in app purchasing mechanism who don’t have access to credit cards.
over_byte 3y ago
Apple is attempting to leverage its position as a platform holder, as it always has, by threatening the open web. It's APIs to support the web platform are shockingly, even purposely, terrible and it uses it's app developer licence to ensure that open development cannot happen on its closed OS. Worse, it doesn't even play on an even playing field, as it ensures that the WebView that developers are required to use is less up to date than the already poor Safari browser on iOS. This is anti-competitive and is the way Apple has always operated. The EU has enacted its laws to protect users and developers working with the platform from these limitations. PWAs are just a part of it (see per install charges, WebView limitations, Apple malicious compliance). It's pretty obvious that Apple will not allow its AppStore cash cow to be tampered with so they will need to be strongarmed.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Well, first it came out in the Epic trial that 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchases. Those companies aren’t going to move to the web because they want the direct access to users wallets that they get from the in app purchase mechanisms. People aren’t as willing to put their credit card on random sites and people have access to pay via in app purchases that don’t have access to credit cards. But you still didn’t answer the question, if it were just Apple, then why aren’t companies abandoning the Google Plau Store in droves and just creating PWAs that will work on Android devices and PCs and avoid the “Google tax”?
  - over_byte 3y ago
    It isn't about abandoning the app stores, it's about offering reasonable alternatives, whether they be alternative app stores or first class web apps. There's definitely reasons to create native apps, which is why Apple created the AppStore in the first place (we all know that when the iPhone launched, it was only web apps), heavy graphics games being a big one, but simply removing existing functionality in response to being forced to allow these alternatives is just Apple throwing the dummy out of the pram. For the record, Google has always allowed alternative app stores, browser engines and PWAs and has not suffered much in terms of financial loss but they are used to playing on the open web whereas Apple's financial model is more like Microsoft's (at least in software)

over_byte 3y ago

Electron is a useful hack with the same resource problems as Chrome rather than an ideal solution. More the point though, PWAs are part of the existing web ecosystem. Apple has dragged its heels bringing Safari and their Webview up to spec on anything that might damage the AppStore ecosystem for years. They've also forced browser developers to use their webview instead of the browser's engines and has kept the API broken for functionality which they support in Safari - I mean try running a webrtc application in both safari and either chrome or firefox on iOS and see the problems. By enforcing the Webview on everyone they also ensure that all web developers need to have a mac to debug Safari specific issues that happen on a level unseen since IE7. The EU is simply telling Apple they can't leverage this anti-competitive behaviour, just like they rightly did for Microsoft in the 90s and Apple are just trying to salt the earth in the EU. It's a joke

scarface_74 3y ago
And you still didn’t dispute anything I said. If it’s only Apple keeping the wonderful world of PWAs back, why are the same companies that create iOS apps creating Android apps instead of just creating a PWA?
- thomas-guettler 3y ago
  Reason 1: This would confuse users. Reason 2: it's easier to use a tool like Cordova and create an Android and iOS app.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    It would confuse all of the users that have both Android and iOS phones???

pests 3y ago

Users don't know or care where they get their apps from. Web vs native, they don't care. If letting PWAs be made better and cheaper... users will benefit.

dspillett 3y ago

> The year of the PWA is the new “year of Linux on the desktop”. Because Apple, a large part of the market, are actively fighting to stop it. > No user is asking for web apps And they shouldn't. They should not have to care if their app is a PWA or not. Developers need to care so they use the right tool for the job (native if they need the benefits offered by that, such as a performance boost or device wide access, PWA in most other cases where cross-platform concerns are more important than that) but the user shouldn't have to clamour for either.

scarface_74 3y ago
So because Apple ID fighting it, companies aren’t creating PWAs for Android to avoid the “Google tax”? Cross platform concerns and worse performance are never a benefit to the user.
- dspillett 3y ago
  Firstly, I said absolutely nothing about any “Google Tax”. If companies are creating PWAs to avoid appstore tax are doing it to avoid Apple Tax as well as Google Tax. I ignored that straw man in your previous post. The problem is developers who want to easily create cross-platform apps and games, who are finding it harder to do so because Apple won't let them, because the tool they want to use might reduce Apple's ability to unfairly tax developers. Apple tax is the why. Apple potentially inconveniencing everyone by breaking existing features in a hissy-fit is the how.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    It’s not a straw man at all. The main motivation according to people on HN is creating a PWA helps avoid the “Apple tax”. If PWAs are good enough on Android, why wouldn’t developers be motivated to avoid the “Google tax” even if they couldn’t avoid the Apple tax? On that same note, since most companies create a website anyway, why not just tell Android users to use a web app instead of also creating an Android app? And as far as games, most game makers make money from in app purchases of loot boxes and coins for pay to win games (this came out in the various Epic vs Apple trials). As much as they whine about the “Apple tax” they love having direct access to whale’s wallets via in app purchases. And no they aren’t just going to get users to fork over their credit cards to random sites and there are plenty of people especially kids who have access to the in app purchasing mechanism who don’t have access to credit cards.

over_byte 3y ago

Apple is attempting to leverage its position as a platform holder, as it always has, by threatening the open web. It's APIs to support the web platform are shockingly, even purposely, terrible and it uses it's app developer licence to ensure that open development cannot happen on its closed OS. Worse, it doesn't even play on an even playing field, as it ensures that the WebView that developers are required to use is less up to date than the already poor Safari browser on iOS. This is anti-competitive and is the way Apple has always operated. The EU has enacted its laws to protect users and developers working with the platform from these limitations. PWAs are just a part of it (see per install charges, WebView limitations, Apple malicious compliance). It's pretty obvious that Apple will not allow its AppStore cash cow to be tampered with so they will need to be strongarmed.

scarface_74 3y ago
Well, first it came out in the Epic trial that 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchases. Those companies aren’t going to move to the web because they want the direct access to users wallets that they get from the in app purchase mechanisms. People aren’t as willing to put their credit card on random sites and people have access to pay via in app purchases that don’t have access to credit cards. But you still didn’t answer the question, if it were just Apple, then why aren’t companies abandoning the Google Plau Store in droves and just creating PWAs that will work on Android devices and PCs and avoid the “Google tax”?
- over_byte 3y ago
  It isn't about abandoning the app stores, it's about offering reasonable alternatives, whether they be alternative app stores or first class web apps. There's definitely reasons to create native apps, which is why Apple created the AppStore in the first place (we all know that when the iPhone launched, it was only web apps), heavy graphics games being a big one, but simply removing existing functionality in response to being forced to allow these alternatives is just Apple throwing the dummy out of the pram. For the record, Google has always allowed alternative app stores, browser engines and PWAs and has not suffered much in terms of financial loss but they are used to playing on the open web whereas Apple's financial model is more like Microsoft's (at least in software)