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This doesn't sound as dire to me as the author makes it out to be. I think it sounds totally reasonable that you need 20,000 or even 100,000 engaged followers

This doesn't sound as dire to me as the author makes it out to be. I think it sounds totally reasonable that you need 20,000 or even 100,000 engaged followers to be able to make it full time off creating content. I don't see how, even with advertising or sponsors, a smaller number of followers could ever pay a livable salary (out of 20,000 people, how many of those mattresses are you really going to sell?). It used to be that a TV show needed viewership numbers of millions of viewers to be profitable, this is still a massive democratization of content.

wodenokoto 3y ago
No, tv shows where profitable with much, much lower numbers than millions.
- rjmunro 3y ago
  Not many TV shows are profitable with less than 20,000 viewers, which is what we are talking about here.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  Lois & Clark was canceled (not just not renewed - canceled in the middle of their contract) when their ratings fell below 10 million. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lois_%26_Clark:_The_New_Adventures_of_Superman#Season_4_(1996%E2%80%931997) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lois_%26_Clark:_The_New_Advent...
  - twic 3y ago
    That doesn't mean it wasn't profitable, just that the network thought another show in that slot might be more profitable. Talking about audience thresholds for profitability of TV shows is a bit pointless though, because there's so much variation in how much they cost to make. Effects-heavy action shows are ~30 million dollars an episode at the moment. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is ~1.5 million. Gameshows and reality TV are even cheaper.
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
      > That doesn't mean it wasn't profitable, just that the network thought another show in that slot might be more profitable. Another show in that slot being more profitable does mean that the show already in there isn't. The time slot is a resource that the show consumes; if it can't afford to pay for that resource, then it's unprofitable.
      - earthling8118 3y ago
        That doesn't mean that it couldn't pay for the slot. Just that something could turn out more money. Many of us value things beyond pure profit at all cost.
      - twic 3y ago
        That would only be correct if the cost of the time slot was set according to the maximum amount that any show could pay to be in it (determined via cross-universe market research?). But it isn't, so it's incorrect.
        thaumasiotes 3y ago
        That is literally what happened (though the price was determined by expert estimate rather than surveys), and the show folded.
pjc50 3y ago
Indeed. People need to look at the numerator and the denominator. How many millions of content creators are there out there? How much disposable income do fans really have? The advantage of Patreon-like systems is they let the creators "whale hunt", by taking much larger amounts of money from a small number of more engaged fans. > Eventually, her viewers were asking for more recipes, more elaborate productions, and fancier kitchen gadgets to review. Suddenly, she needed some serious cash to keep it all going. She started taking on sponsors, then product placements, then brand deals. I watched her churn-out videos, just ads for knives, mixers, or meal kits. And I could see the light going out of her eyes a little. Nobody "made" her do this: she was working for herself. And, as her own boss, she drove herself to work harder to the point of burnout. It's almost directly analogous to opening a restaurant. You buy kitchen equipment and ingredients and hope to turn a profit from satisfying the desires of the public. Quite often it doesn't work out; most restaurants close within a year or two of opening.
- tialaramex 3y ago
  The couple who make the best pizza in my city opened a (pizza) restaurant but they eventually decided that running a restaurant wasn't part of what they enjoyed, so they're back in a van outside of a pub. The pizza never really changed, a wood fired pizza oven fits inside a vehicle or a restaurant kitchen the same, and beyond that it's about the skill and judgement of the person making the pizza. If you want to do what you love, and it makes enough money to live on, turning that into something you don't love but which makes more money is a grave mistake. We are mortal, this is all temporary.
- georgesimon 3y ago
  > Nobody "made" her do this It's not a career, it's more like being in a band. Everyone who is visible doing it, looks like a success. We don't see the 1000 failures. My advice with all creative pursuits is: don't. Put it to one side and create the next one. If it keeps nagging at you despite your attempts to leave it behind, then you can give it some attention. Only go all-in when you're left with no other choice. I saw Tim Schafer at Double-Fine express similar thoughts about their Amnesia Fortnight game jams. Even if an idea seems great; don't force yourself to pursue it, take a step back and see if it pursues you.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
plastic3169 3y ago
> It used to be that a TV show needed viewership numbers of millions of viewers to be profitable, this is still a massive democratization of content. That is somewhat US pov. Small countries with small populations did and still do domestic content all the time and hitting even 100s of thousands viewers is absolutely massive if your population is in single millions. Sure it’s not game of thrones budget, but if you look something like hit danish tv it’s clearly as professional and high quality.
- heavenlyblue 3y ago
  Most of the small countries are not Denmark and they indeed do have shit, low-budget TV shows on all the time.
  - plastic3169 3y ago
    True, but even the low-budget programs need crew, production companies, studio or locations, surprising amount of gear etc. Average influencer can run their setup so much more light weight.

wodenokoto 3y ago

No, tv shows where profitable with much, much lower numbers than millions.

rjmunro 3y ago
Not many TV shows are profitable with less than 20,000 viewers, which is what we are talking about here.
thaumasiotes 3y ago
Lois & Clark was canceled (not just not renewed - canceled in the middle of their contract) when their ratings fell below 10 million. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lois_%26_Clark:_The_New_Adventures_of_Superman#Season_4_(1996%E2%80%931997) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lois_%26_Clark:_The_New_Advent...
- twic 3y ago
  That doesn't mean it wasn't profitable, just that the network thought another show in that slot might be more profitable. Talking about audience thresholds for profitability of TV shows is a bit pointless though, because there's so much variation in how much they cost to make. Effects-heavy action shows are ~30 million dollars an episode at the moment. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is ~1.5 million. Gameshows and reality TV are even cheaper.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    > That doesn't mean it wasn't profitable, just that the network thought another show in that slot might be more profitable. Another show in that slot being more profitable does mean that the show already in there isn't. The time slot is a resource that the show consumes; if it can't afford to pay for that resource, then it's unprofitable.
    - earthling8118 3y ago
      That doesn't mean that it couldn't pay for the slot. Just that something could turn out more money. Many of us value things beyond pure profit at all cost.
    - twic 3y ago
      That would only be correct if the cost of the time slot was set according to the maximum amount that any show could pay to be in it (determined via cross-universe market research?). But it isn't, so it's incorrect.
      - thaumasiotes 3y ago
        That is literally what happened (though the price was determined by expert estimate rather than surveys), and the show folded.

pjc50 3y ago

Indeed. People need to look at the numerator and the denominator. How many millions of content creators are there out there? How much disposable income do fans really have? The advantage of Patreon-like systems is they let the creators "whale hunt", by taking much larger amounts of money from a small number of more engaged fans. > Eventually, her viewers were asking for more recipes, more elaborate productions, and fancier kitchen gadgets to review. Suddenly, she needed some serious cash to keep it all going. She started taking on sponsors, then product placements, then brand deals. I watched her churn-out videos, just ads for knives, mixers, or meal kits. And I could see the light going out of her eyes a little. Nobody "made" her do this: she was working for herself. And, as her own boss, she drove herself to work harder to the point of burnout. It's almost directly analogous to opening a restaurant. You buy kitchen equipment and ingredients and hope to turn a profit from satisfying the desires of the public. Quite often it doesn't work out; most restaurants close within a year or two of opening.

tialaramex 3y ago
The couple who make the best pizza in my city opened a (pizza) restaurant but they eventually decided that running a restaurant wasn't part of what they enjoyed, so they're back in a van outside of a pub. The pizza never really changed, a wood fired pizza oven fits inside a vehicle or a restaurant kitchen the same, and beyond that it's about the skill and judgement of the person making the pizza. If you want to do what you love, and it makes enough money to live on, turning that into something you don't love but which makes more money is a grave mistake. We are mortal, this is all temporary.
georgesimon 3y ago
> Nobody "made" her do this It's not a career, it's more like being in a band. Everyone who is visible doing it, looks like a success. We don't see the 1000 failures. My advice with all creative pursuits is: don't. Put it to one side and create the next one. If it keeps nagging at you despite your attempts to leave it behind, then you can give it some attention. Only go all-in when you're left with no other choice. I saw Tim Schafer at Double-Fine express similar thoughts about their Amnesia Fortnight game jams. Even if an idea seems great; don't force yourself to pursue it, take a step back and see if it pursues you.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

plastic3169 3y ago

> It used to be that a TV show needed viewership numbers of millions of viewers to be profitable, this is still a massive democratization of content. That is somewhat US pov. Small countries with small populations did and still do domestic content all the time and hitting even 100s of thousands viewers is absolutely massive if your population is in single millions. Sure it’s not game of thrones budget, but if you look something like hit danish tv it’s clearly as professional and high quality.

heavenlyblue 3y ago
Most of the small countries are not Denmark and they indeed do have shit, low-budget TV shows on all the time.
- plastic3169 3y ago
  True, but even the low-budget programs need crew, production companies, studio or locations, surprising amount of gear etc. Average influencer can run their setup so much more light weight.