5 ms·

I am not holding my breath to see the following posts: 1) Mozilla complaining about not being able to run Firefox on iOS or on Chromebooks even though the situ

I am not holding my breath to see the following posts: 1) Mozilla complaining about not being able to run Firefox on iOS or on Chromebooks even though the situation is exactly the same as with Windows RT. 2) IE team complaining that Firefox is the only browser allowed by Mozilla on Boot2Gecko.

diminish 14y ago
Long time FF supporter here; Actually Apple not allowing Firefox fully on iOS paved the way for Win8 doing the same.
fpgeek 14y ago
On 1, Mozilla may have been more quiet than they should have been, but I don't think anyone was in doubt about how they felt (and I do know they had a debate about whether even do Firefox Home for iOS, all things considered). On 2, I'd bet that Firefox won't be the only browser allowed on Boot2Gecko. I'm not saying that getting an alternative browser on there will be pretty (the browser would have to provide an unusual amount of support infrastructure, most likely), but, given Mozilla's principles, I don't expect them to actively block you from doing so (the way Microsoft and Apple do).
daeken 14y ago
Firefox isn't the only browser allowed by Mozilla on Boot2Gecko. Not only would that be permissible in our web store (as far as I'm aware), but you could freely distribute it on your own without having to jump through hoops. That is one of the points of the project, and is very much by design. If the IE team wants to build a new browser for B2G, I'd love to see it! (Disclosure: I'm a B2G team member but these are my views, etc etc...)
- revorad 14y ago
  OT: daeken, great to see you're now working on B2G! I'm going to their hackathon in London this weekend - can't wait to see a B2G device.
- st3fan 14y ago
  Daeken, I thought the only thing users could download to their B2G phones were web applications. There is zero support for native apps, like alternative browsers, right?
  - freehunter 14y ago
    Yeah, I'm struggling to see how a browser could possibly be implemented in another browser and expect to have competitive performance. Especially when Gecko will be running native code, and any other browser would not be.
    - Produce 14y ago
      He meant that anyone is free to take the B2G source code and modify it to boot into another browser.
      - cube13 14y ago
        So the answer is, basically, "No, you can't."
  - daeken 14y ago
    Native apps on Boot2Gecko are web applications, by definition. And you're free to implement alternative browsers on top of that -- even if you're still using Gecko underlying everything, you can give a vastly different experience. Arguing that they can't run their own engine code is a technical issue, not a business/political issue. Also, one of the key things about Boot2Gecko is that it's intended to be reimplemented. You could make a Boot2IE phone or Boot2Chromium phone; you swap out the low level but keep everything on top of it the same. Everything is built on real web standards that are free to be implemented by all. It's truly open, top to bottom and bottom to top.
    - st3fan 14y ago
      I think the original question was more like: can a third party like Opera or Microsoft port their browser to B2G and make it available through the B2G store. As an app. The answer is no because third party B2G apps cannot be written in C or C++.
- MatthewPhillips 14y ago
  Whoa, I follow the B2G project and this would be news to me if true... are you saying someone can right a browser for B2G that JITs JavaScript to native code?
harshreality 14y ago
2) Antitrust is not only about whether a platform denies competition. It also takes into account market share. Chromebooks and Boot2Gecko have minuscule marketshare. However, you can root chromebooks and B2G is all open code, so nothing is stopping Microsoft from developing for those linux-based platforms if they want to. In order to begin to have a valid complaint, Microsoft would have to offer IE for full-userland linux desktops and laptops, which they haven't done. If those stripped down linux platforms became near-monopolies, and if they didn't have open specifications, under the Sherman Act they could conceivably be required to open their APIs for other browser makers to compete. In a world without Android, Apple might be in danger of violating antitrust law with iOS development restrictions, if they had a near monopoly on smartphones and tablets.
- recoiledsnake 14y ago
  And Windows RT has how much marketshare? Just because it has Windows in the name doesn't mean that Windows RT is the same as Windows. It won't run a single app runs on Windows 7. How is it even remotely similar?
  - harshreality 14y ago
    Two reasons: 1. Microsoft is already suspect because of antitrust violations in the past. 2. Their development tools will certainly eventually allow simultaneous windows x86/amd64/arm builds, which could allow them to bootstrap windows RT marketshare.
mbrubeck 14y ago
Hi, I'm on the mobile Firefox team at Mozilla. We have been talking about the iOS situation for years now [1], though it's not likely to make the news these days because nothing has changed. Windows is also different because there are questions about how previous agreements with the US DOJ apply to Windows desktop on ARM hardware, so the questions facing Microsoft are different than the ones facing Apple. [1] For example, see http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/27/firefox-iphone-2/ http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/27/firefox-iphone-2/

diminish 14y ago

Long time FF supporter here; Actually Apple not allowing Firefox fully on iOS paved the way for Win8 doing the same.

fpgeek 14y ago

On 1, Mozilla may have been more quiet than they should have been, but I don't think anyone was in doubt about how they felt (and I do know they had a debate about whether even do Firefox Home for iOS, all things considered). On 2, I'd bet that Firefox won't be the only browser allowed on Boot2Gecko. I'm not saying that getting an alternative browser on there will be pretty (the browser would have to provide an unusual amount of support infrastructure, most likely), but, given Mozilla's principles, I don't expect them to actively block you from doing so (the way Microsoft and Apple do).

daeken 14y ago

Firefox isn't the only browser allowed by Mozilla on Boot2Gecko. Not only would that be permissible in our web store (as far as I'm aware), but you could freely distribute it on your own without having to jump through hoops. That is one of the points of the project, and is very much by design. If the IE team wants to build a new browser for B2G, I'd love to see it! (Disclosure: I'm a B2G team member but these are my views, etc etc...)

revorad 14y ago
OT: daeken, great to see you're now working on B2G! I'm going to their hackathon in London this weekend - can't wait to see a B2G device.
st3fan 14y ago
Daeken, I thought the only thing users could download to their B2G phones were web applications. There is zero support for native apps, like alternative browsers, right?
- freehunter 14y ago
  Yeah, I'm struggling to see how a browser could possibly be implemented in another browser and expect to have competitive performance. Especially when Gecko will be running native code, and any other browser would not be.
  - Produce 14y ago
    He meant that anyone is free to take the B2G source code and modify it to boot into another browser.
    - cube13 14y ago
      So the answer is, basically, "No, you can't."
- daeken 14y ago
  Native apps on Boot2Gecko are web applications, by definition. And you're free to implement alternative browsers on top of that -- even if you're still using Gecko underlying everything, you can give a vastly different experience. Arguing that they can't run their own engine code is a technical issue, not a business/political issue. Also, one of the key things about Boot2Gecko is that it's intended to be reimplemented. You could make a Boot2IE phone or Boot2Chromium phone; you swap out the low level but keep everything on top of it the same. Everything is built on real web standards that are free to be implemented by all. It's truly open, top to bottom and bottom to top.
  - st3fan 14y ago
    I think the original question was more like: can a third party like Opera or Microsoft port their browser to B2G and make it available through the B2G store. As an app. The answer is no because third party B2G apps cannot be written in C or C++.
MatthewPhillips 14y ago
Whoa, I follow the B2G project and this would be news to me if true... are you saying someone can right a browser for B2G that JITs JavaScript to native code?

harshreality 14y ago

2) Antitrust is not only about whether a platform denies competition. It also takes into account market share. Chromebooks and Boot2Gecko have minuscule marketshare. However, you can root chromebooks and B2G is all open code, so nothing is stopping Microsoft from developing for those linux-based platforms if they want to. In order to begin to have a valid complaint, Microsoft would have to offer IE for full-userland linux desktops and laptops, which they haven't done. If those stripped down linux platforms became near-monopolies, and if they didn't have open specifications, under the Sherman Act they could conceivably be required to open their APIs for other browser makers to compete. In a world without Android, Apple might be in danger of violating antitrust law with iOS development restrictions, if they had a near monopoly on smartphones and tablets.

recoiledsnake 14y ago
And Windows RT has how much marketshare? Just because it has Windows in the name doesn't mean that Windows RT is the same as Windows. It won't run a single app runs on Windows 7. How is it even remotely similar?
- harshreality 14y ago
  Two reasons: 1. Microsoft is already suspect because of antitrust violations in the past. 2. Their development tools will certainly eventually allow simultaneous windows x86/amd64/arm builds, which could allow them to bootstrap windows RT marketshare.

mbrubeck 14y ago

Hi, I'm on the mobile Firefox team at Mozilla. We have been talking about the iOS situation for years now [1], though it's not likely to make the news these days because nothing has changed. Windows is also different because there are questions about how previous agreements with the US DOJ apply to Windows desktop on ARM hardware, so the questions facing Microsoft are different than the ones facing Apple. [1] For example, see http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/27/firefox-iphone-2/ http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/27/firefox-iphone-2/