5 ms·

Sky High Sabotage: Major Airlines Are Using TSA to Shut Down Competitor

77 points by rokkitmensch 3y ago

superkuh 3y ago
The Dept. of Homeland Security (of which the TSA is part) is central in most increases in federal power since 2001. The government will certainly chose to back the option which give them more power in an even case. But this case is stacked because of the powerful corporations and lobbies that are protecting their moats.
- reaperman 3y ago
  FTA: > DOT planned to put JSX out of business at the behest of American, Southwest and ALPA. But that had to be done publicly and more public comments in opposition were filed than DOT has ever received before. The TSA does not have to operate under the same sort of sunlight – we don’t even get to know what they propose.
therockspush 3y ago
I just had a flight with JSX cancelled because of this, it's sad. Regulations are written in blood, but this one just looks like it's written in green.
- geor9e 3y ago
  Are you sure this is related? JSX is selling tickets like normal, and the article says nothing about any actions taken, only that the TSA hasn't made public it's plans yet.
  - therockspush 3y ago
    So far they've had to pull out of a few airports when FBOs stop hosting them, mostly without explanation. The same FBOs that allow part 135 operators, some owned by the majors, to run. Seems related.
notamy 3y ago
> When speaking internally to employees, American Airlines has explained their lobbying against JSX as a competitive response to the carrier which offers consumers a more compelling product. That is... painful to read. "Lobby the government to make a competitor's life harder" just feels so absurd when they could (and should) compete on the actual offering.
- kragen 3y ago
  regulatory capture is of course harmful to public welfare, but it's also extremely profitable, so wherever you find regulation, you'll find that regulatory capture is a high priority for the regulated businesses they're almost always successful because they both know more and care more about the field being regulated than anyone else does
  - dv_dt 3y ago
    And if you find no regulation in areas where consumers are being harmed it can often be even worse. Personally I don’t think regulatory capture is an argument against regulations - but perhaps I’m reading too much into the statement.
    - kragen 3y ago
      your claim seems to be that merchants can harm consumers more without the government's help than with the government's help; that is, that when the government attempts to help merchants harm consumers, the government's help is not only ineffective but actually counterproductive, instead having a protective effect stated thus, the thesis seems both implausible on its face and empirically falsified by abundant historical evidence; not only does history contain such egregious counterexamples as the great leap forward, chernobyl, the opium war, and the congo free state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State#/media/File:Nsala_of_Wala_in_Congo_looks_at_the_severed_hand_and_foot_of_his_five-year_old_daughter,_1904.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State#/media/File:N... but also abuses less serious in degree but far more numerous and long-lasting, such as the british raj's regulation of the consumers of thread and yarn https://www.sgbgatelier.com/world/2019/11/21/5-ways-imperial-britain-crippled-indian-handlooms https://www.sgbgatelier.com/world/2019/11/21/5-ways-imperial..., the predatory pricing in mining companies' so-called company stores, and the recent intentional addition of allergens to many food products in the usa so either you have not put much thought into your position or i have sorely misunderstood your intent
doctorpangloss 3y ago
I’m pretty sure normal people want as many first class passengers flying on shitty airlines as possible, because better their money than yours paying for the cheap tickets you want.
throwaway5752 3y ago
JSX operates under a regulatory loophole that allows them to bypass TSA security and hire significantly less experienced pilots. It is easy to find articles with very different opinions on JSX than this one. I would ask why a company operating the same planes and more total flight hour than a competitor should be able to bypass the same security requirements and hire pilots with half the flight hours. Same goes for Skywest Charter. The rules they work around, in Part 121, were made stricter 15 years ago because of the Colgan crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407#Legacy that killed 49 people on the aircraft and one on the ground.
- bedhead 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - throwaway5752 3y ago
    Okay, that is fair. But if you are a major or regional flying under part 121, it isn't quite fair for JSX to essentially pretend they are not scheduled. Maybe they 1500 hour rule should be relaxed for everyone. But JSX is flying the same planes at the same scale as other companies and presents the same risk to the general public. They should be regulated the same. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19144957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19144957 is 5 years old but has some good insights. edit: I missed the name-calling. Please be better than that.
  - selimthegrim 3y ago
    Do we really need to name call here
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  European airlines hire pilots with even fewer hours, but have similar accident rates. There is still significant oversight for anyone operating aircraft commercially, and it doesn't seem like this poses a significant risk from that perspective.
- jessriedel 3y ago
tomohawk 3y ago
Get rid of the TSA. Security theatre belongs off broadway, not at airports.
- dumbo-octopus 3y ago
  Do you think anybody should be able to bring whatever they want onto a plane?
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    https://reason.com/2021/11/19/after-20-years-of-failure-kill-the-tsa/ https://reason.com/2021/11/19/after-20-years-of-failure-kill... ("After 20 Years of Failure, Kill the TSA") | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29286418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29286418 (November 2021 thread) https://web.archive.org/web/20181009074941/http:/oversight.house.gov:80/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/5-9-2012-Joint-TSA-Staff-Report-FINAL.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20181009074941/http:/oversight.h... ("Airport Insecurity: TSA’s Failure to CostEffectively Procure, Deploy and Warehouse its Screening Technologies") https://www.oig.dhs.gov/taxonomy/term/5 https://www.oig.dhs.gov/taxonomy/term/5 ("Office of Inspector General DHS TSA Reports") https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/06/reassessing_air.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/06/reassessing_a... ("Bruce Schneier: Reassessing Airport Security") | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9699339 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9699339 (June 2015 thread) > The TSA blog carries constant reports of weapons confiscated from people who forgot to remove them from carry-on bags. But the Homeland Security Red Teams in the 2015 test actively concealed forbidden items just as real criminals and terrorist would. The result was that "TSA agents failed 67 out of 70 tests, with Red Team members repeatedly able to get potential weapons through checkpoints." > Two years later, a Red Team test at Minneapolis-St. Paul Airport achieved the same 95 percent failure rate to detect explosives, weapons, and illegal drugs. Repeat national tests in 2017 also went badly, "in the ballpark" of an 80 percent failure rate. > In fact, the DHS Inspector General has long been a thorn in the TSA's side, compiling a still-growing collection of critical reports. In 2015, the TSA grew so upset with the criticism that it went so far as to classify some findings as "sensitive security information" in order to suppress distribution.
jrockway 3y ago
It's interesting that the airlines are fighting back against the intrusive searches that the TSA does. I always assumed the TSA was the revenue protection branch of the major air carriers. That's why they need to match the name on your boarding pass to your government ID; a secondary market for airline tickets would cost the airlines revenue. (Imagine that instead of "no cancellations" you could just give the ticket you no longer want to a friend. That's basically the same thing as stealing the CEO's yacht!) The security function of the TSA is just to provide the illusion that they do something. In the 2000s when the TSA was introduced, people were scared that they were going to be the next building demolition squad every time they got on a flight. Some fancy looking machines and long lines make it feel like someone's doing something. But it's all a disguise for their actual function; revenue protection. So now an airline comes along and says "yeah that's all security theater, we do a background check, pay our own guy to check your ID, and just have you walk through a metal detector", and they're mad about it? It was their idea in the first place! Be careful about voting for the "leopards eating people's faces" party... they might eat your face too.
- cj 3y ago
  > people were scared that they were going to be the next building demolition squad every time they got on a flight. Some fancy looking machines and long lines make it feel like someone's doing something I mean the only negative news I hear about planes is Boeing’s QA issues. When was the last terror attack on a plane? Is it possible the metal detectors are actually working and not just security theater? Or are other changes like a locked cockpit door the real reason consumer confidence in flying is high (only brought down by Boeing engineering issues)?
  - eropple 3y ago
    > Is it possible the metal detectors are actually working and not just security theater? The results have been consistently poor over a long period of time. Just one example: https://web.archive.org/web/20181009074941/http:/oversight.house.gov:80/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/5-9-2012-Joint-TSA-Staff-Report-FINAL.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20181009074941/http:/oversight.h... It's possible that they are doing something for sure, but also possible they're just a tiger rock.
throwaway_0226 3y ago
This again ... This happens once every decade at Lovefield. (I've lived in Dallas my entire life and am in my 50s). About once a decade, a new "business travel" airline starts flying at Lovefield. They get a waver to fly because they remove enough seats from the plane so that it gets classified as a business airline and/or charter plane. Or their seats are only first class, which gets a different designation. Etc And then, if they gain any traction - AA and SW find a law/regulation to put them out of business. This isn't the first time, and it won't be the last.
- teepo 3y ago
  I’ve had some colleagues take this flight from HOU to DAL or vice versa, and they love it. The flights show up these days in SAP Concur, but in my experience have always been just out of reach of “policy” which creates exceptions and alerts in our corp t&e bureaucracy. I travel quite a bit and would jump at the chance if the fares were only $30 less. Combined with the devaluation of flyer miles and loyalty programs, JSX is in a great position to bridge the gap until we get a train
  - rokkitmensch 3y ago
    Pay the thirty dollar delta yourself? Charge it to your own card and only expense the allowed amount?
- jessriedel 3y ago
  Do you remember the names of any of them?
  - throwaway_0226 3y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_Airlines https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_Airlines
    - jessriedel 3y ago
      Thx!
kalkr 3y ago
I sometimes sometimes wonder what the airline industry would look like if America had meaningful high speed rail.
- teepo 3y ago
  In this case the same airlines are killing efforts for high speed rail between the major Texas metros. AA and SWA would lose out if an efficient rail alternative existed.
Aloha 3y ago
As someone who travels a whole lot - I love the idea of this service being accessible. But I dont think its good for the environment to be encourager more smaller planes to fly - fewer larger planes seem better for the environment - even if you ignore carbon, those emissions are not free.

77 points by rokkitmensch 3y ago

The Dept. of Homeland Security (of which the TSA is part) is central in most increases in federal power since 2001. The government will certainly chose to back the option which give them more power in an even case. But this case is stacked because of the powerful corporations and lobbies that are protecting their moats.

reaperman 3y ago
FTA: > DOT planned to put JSX out of business at the behest of American, Southwest and ALPA. But that had to be done publicly and more public comments in opposition were filed than DOT has ever received before. The TSA does not have to operate under the same sort of sunlight – we don’t even get to know what they propose.

therockspush 3y ago

I just had a flight with JSX cancelled because of this, it's sad. Regulations are written in blood, but this one just looks like it's written in green.

geor9e 3y ago
Are you sure this is related? JSX is selling tickets like normal, and the article says nothing about any actions taken, only that the TSA hasn't made public it's plans yet.
- therockspush 3y ago
  So far they've had to pull out of a few airports when FBOs stop hosting them, mostly without explanation. The same FBOs that allow part 135 operators, some owned by the majors, to run. Seems related.

notamy 3y ago

> When speaking internally to employees, American Airlines has explained their lobbying against JSX as a competitive response to the carrier which offers consumers a more compelling product. That is... painful to read. "Lobby the government to make a competitor's life harder" just feels so absurd when they could (and should) compete on the actual offering.

kragen 3y ago
regulatory capture is of course harmful to public welfare, but it's also extremely profitable, so wherever you find regulation, you'll find that regulatory capture is a high priority for the regulated businesses they're almost always successful because they both know more and care more about the field being regulated than anyone else does
- dv_dt 3y ago
  And if you find no regulation in areas where consumers are being harmed it can often be even worse. Personally I don’t think regulatory capture is an argument against regulations - but perhaps I’m reading too much into the statement.
  - kragen 3y ago
    your claim seems to be that merchants can harm consumers more without the government's help than with the government's help; that is, that when the government attempts to help merchants harm consumers, the government's help is not only ineffective but actually counterproductive, instead having a protective effect stated thus, the thesis seems both implausible on its face and empirically falsified by abundant historical evidence; not only does history contain such egregious counterexamples as the great leap forward, chernobyl, the opium war, and the congo free state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State#/media/File:Nsala_of_Wala_in_Congo_looks_at_the_severed_hand_and_foot_of_his_five-year_old_daughter,_1904.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State#/media/File:N... but also abuses less serious in degree but far more numerous and long-lasting, such as the british raj's regulation of the consumers of thread and yarn https://www.sgbgatelier.com/world/2019/11/21/5-ways-imperial-britain-crippled-indian-handlooms https://www.sgbgatelier.com/world/2019/11/21/5-ways-imperial..., the predatory pricing in mining companies' so-called company stores, and the recent intentional addition of allergens to many food products in the usa so either you have not put much thought into your position or i have sorely misunderstood your intent

doctorpangloss 3y ago

I’m pretty sure normal people want as many first class passengers flying on shitty airlines as possible, because better their money than yours paying for the cheap tickets you want.

throwaway5752 3y ago

JSX operates under a regulatory loophole that allows them to bypass TSA security and hire significantly less experienced pilots. It is easy to find articles with very different opinions on JSX than this one. I would ask why a company operating the same planes and more total flight hour than a competitor should be able to bypass the same security requirements and hire pilots with half the flight hours. Same goes for Skywest Charter. The rules they work around, in Part 121, were made stricter 15 years ago because of the Colgan crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407#Legacy that killed 49 people on the aircraft and one on the ground.

bedhead 3y ago
[flagged]
- throwaway5752 3y ago
  Okay, that is fair. But if you are a major or regional flying under part 121, it isn't quite fair for JSX to essentially pretend they are not scheduled. Maybe they 1500 hour rule should be relaxed for everyone. But JSX is flying the same planes at the same scale as other companies and presents the same risk to the general public. They should be regulated the same. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19144957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19144957 is 5 years old but has some good insights. edit: I missed the name-calling. Please be better than that.
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  Do we really need to name call here
dghlsakjg 3y ago
European airlines hire pilots with even fewer hours, but have similar accident rates. There is still significant oversight for anyone operating aircraft commercially, and it doesn't seem like this poses a significant risk from that perspective.
jessriedel 3y ago

tomohawk 3y ago

Get rid of the TSA. Security theatre belongs off broadway, not at airports.

dumbo-octopus 3y ago
Do you think anybody should be able to bring whatever they want onto a plane?
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  https://reason.com/2021/11/19/after-20-years-of-failure-kill-the-tsa/ https://reason.com/2021/11/19/after-20-years-of-failure-kill... ("After 20 Years of Failure, Kill the TSA") | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29286418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29286418 (November 2021 thread) https://web.archive.org/web/20181009074941/http:/oversight.house.gov:80/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/5-9-2012-Joint-TSA-Staff-Report-FINAL.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20181009074941/http:/oversight.h... ("Airport Insecurity: TSA’s Failure to CostEffectively Procure, Deploy and Warehouse its Screening Technologies") https://www.oig.dhs.gov/taxonomy/term/5 https://www.oig.dhs.gov/taxonomy/term/5 ("Office of Inspector General DHS TSA Reports") https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/06/reassessing_air.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/06/reassessing_a... ("Bruce Schneier: Reassessing Airport Security") | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9699339 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9699339 (June 2015 thread) > The TSA blog carries constant reports of weapons confiscated from people who forgot to remove them from carry-on bags. But the Homeland Security Red Teams in the 2015 test actively concealed forbidden items just as real criminals and terrorist would. The result was that "TSA agents failed 67 out of 70 tests, with Red Team members repeatedly able to get potential weapons through checkpoints." > Two years later, a Red Team test at Minneapolis-St. Paul Airport achieved the same 95 percent failure rate to detect explosives, weapons, and illegal drugs. Repeat national tests in 2017 also went badly, "in the ballpark" of an 80 percent failure rate. > In fact, the DHS Inspector General has long been a thorn in the TSA's side, compiling a still-growing collection of critical reports. In 2015, the TSA grew so upset with the criticism that it went so far as to classify some findings as "sensitive security information" in order to suppress distribution.

jrockway 3y ago

It's interesting that the airlines are fighting back against the intrusive searches that the TSA does. I always assumed the TSA was the revenue protection branch of the major air carriers. That's why they need to match the name on your boarding pass to your government ID; a secondary market for airline tickets would cost the airlines revenue. (Imagine that instead of "no cancellations" you could just give the ticket you no longer want to a friend. That's basically the same thing as stealing the CEO's yacht!) The security function of the TSA is just to provide the illusion that they do something. In the 2000s when the TSA was introduced, people were scared that they were going to be the next building demolition squad every time they got on a flight. Some fancy looking machines and long lines make it feel like someone's doing something. But it's all a disguise for their actual function; revenue protection. So now an airline comes along and says "yeah that's all security theater, we do a background check, pay our own guy to check your ID, and just have you walk through a metal detector", and they're mad about it? It was their idea in the first place! Be careful about voting for the "leopards eating people's faces" party... they might eat your face too.

cj 3y ago
> people were scared that they were going to be the next building demolition squad every time they got on a flight. Some fancy looking machines and long lines make it feel like someone's doing something I mean the only negative news I hear about planes is Boeing’s QA issues. When was the last terror attack on a plane? Is it possible the metal detectors are actually working and not just security theater? Or are other changes like a locked cockpit door the real reason consumer confidence in flying is high (only brought down by Boeing engineering issues)?
- eropple 3y ago
  > Is it possible the metal detectors are actually working and not just security theater? The results have been consistently poor over a long period of time. Just one example: https://web.archive.org/web/20181009074941/http:/oversight.house.gov:80/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/5-9-2012-Joint-TSA-Staff-Report-FINAL.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20181009074941/http:/oversight.h... It's possible that they are doing something for sure, but also possible they're just a tiger rock.

throwaway_0226 3y ago

This again ... This happens once every decade at Lovefield. (I've lived in Dallas my entire life and am in my 50s). About once a decade, a new "business travel" airline starts flying at Lovefield. They get a waver to fly because they remove enough seats from the plane so that it gets classified as a business airline and/or charter plane. Or their seats are only first class, which gets a different designation. Etc And then, if they gain any traction - AA and SW find a law/regulation to put them out of business. This isn't the first time, and it won't be the last.

teepo 3y ago
I’ve had some colleagues take this flight from HOU to DAL or vice versa, and they love it. The flights show up these days in SAP Concur, but in my experience have always been just out of reach of “policy” which creates exceptions and alerts in our corp t&e bureaucracy. I travel quite a bit and would jump at the chance if the fares were only $30 less. Combined with the devaluation of flyer miles and loyalty programs, JSX is in a great position to bridge the gap until we get a train
- rokkitmensch 3y ago
  Pay the thirty dollar delta yourself? Charge it to your own card and only expense the allowed amount?
jessriedel 3y ago
Do you remember the names of any of them?
- throwaway_0226 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_Airlines https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_Airlines
  - jessriedel 3y ago
    Thx!

kalkr 3y ago

I sometimes sometimes wonder what the airline industry would look like if America had meaningful high speed rail.

teepo 3y ago
In this case the same airlines are killing efforts for high speed rail between the major Texas metros. AA and SWA would lose out if an efficient rail alternative existed.

Aloha 3y ago

As someone who travels a whole lot - I love the idea of this service being accessible. But I dont think its good for the environment to be encourager more smaller planes to fly - fewer larger planes seem better for the environment - even if you ignore carbon, those emissions are not free.