4 ms·

Sorry to put it this way, but FIRE is some serious bullshit. Most of us barely make ends meet. We bust ass and do everything right. Financial independence is a

Sorry to put it this way, but FIRE is some serious bullshit. Most of us barely make ends meet. We bust ass and do everything right. Financial independence is a pipe dream. Retiring EVER is likely off the table entirely at all.

csande17 3y ago
I'm not as familiar with the names of these things as I ought to be, but isn't FIRE basically the philosophy your post described? "Doing everything right" involves taking on a lot of expensive responsibilities: outrageous student loans, a big mortgage, dependents. But you can just... say no, to many of those things, and stick your money in an index fund instead.
- ramijames 3y ago
  Would have been a great thing to be taught in school 25 years ago.
- deathanatos 3y ago
  No, FIRE as I see it propositioned requires wealth to begin with. See the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRE_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRE_movement — note, for example, the high savings rates. Start with the highest bracket: 75%. If you're spending anywhere near the "affordable limit" of 30% on rent (and AIUI, many people find this tough), it should be trivially obvious that a savings rate of 75% is impossible. (Note that the 30% bar is usually in terms of gross, whereas I presume the amounts listed in the Wikipedia article are in terms of take-home … since otherwise 75% is getting pretty close to tautologically impossible, as it's approaching 100% of one's net income, then.) And we're only counting rent! Add in utilities, a car (+all the stuff with that such as insurance, gas, maintenance, tax), health insurance, expenses not covered by health insurance b/c this is America, food … and yeah. You're not getting a 75% savings rate. We've not even left the bottom two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy here. This is all on the Wikipedia page, too. ("Some critics allege that the FIRE movement 'is only for the rich', pointing to the difficulties of achieving the high savings rates needed for FIRE on a low income."; though I quibble with "low" in that statement.)
  - ramijames 3y ago
    + childcare, which is astronomical.
  - csande17 3y ago
    The average software engineer salary in California is about $150k (https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries/CA https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries/CA), which works out to about $100k after tax (https://www.forbes.com/advisor/income-tax-calculator/california/?deductions=0&filing=single&income=150000&ira=0&k401=0 https://www.forbes.com/advisor/income-tax-calculator/califor...), or about $8k a month. If you're living somewhere where you struggle to find a studio apartment for less than $2k a month, you probably don't need a car. You can easily feed a single person for $20 a day, =about $600 a month, even if you don't cook. 75% is a stretch, but it's entirely possible to save more than half your salary. You might not want to, but then a lot of people don't want to abandon their giant NPM dependency trees either.
- silverquiet 3y ago
  So this reminded me of a pretty funny conversation on Seinfeld between Jerry and Kramer, where Kramer explains to Jerry that these are the prisons that people (really men in context) make for themselves[0]. It's done to good comedic effect, but you do also see his point. Not that everyone would want to live like Kramer obviously. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysw3QZIBzMo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysw3QZIBzMo

csande17 3y ago

I'm not as familiar with the names of these things as I ought to be, but isn't FIRE basically the philosophy your post described? "Doing everything right" involves taking on a lot of expensive responsibilities: outrageous student loans, a big mortgage, dependents. But you can just... say no, to many of those things, and stick your money in an index fund instead.

ramijames 3y ago
Would have been a great thing to be taught in school 25 years ago.
deathanatos 3y ago
No, FIRE as I see it propositioned requires wealth to begin with. See the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRE_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRE_movement — note, for example, the high savings rates. Start with the highest bracket: 75%. If you're spending anywhere near the "affordable limit" of 30% on rent (and AIUI, many people find this tough), it should be trivially obvious that a savings rate of 75% is impossible. (Note that the 30% bar is usually in terms of gross, whereas I presume the amounts listed in the Wikipedia article are in terms of take-home … since otherwise 75% is getting pretty close to tautologically impossible, as it's approaching 100% of one's net income, then.) And we're only counting rent! Add in utilities, a car (+all the stuff with that such as insurance, gas, maintenance, tax), health insurance, expenses not covered by health insurance b/c this is America, food … and yeah. You're not getting a 75% savings rate. We've not even left the bottom two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy here. This is all on the Wikipedia page, too. ("Some critics allege that the FIRE movement 'is only for the rich', pointing to the difficulties of achieving the high savings rates needed for FIRE on a low income."; though I quibble with "low" in that statement.)
- ramijames 3y ago
  + childcare, which is astronomical.
- csande17 3y ago
  The average software engineer salary in California is about $150k (https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries/CA https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries/CA), which works out to about $100k after tax (https://www.forbes.com/advisor/income-tax-calculator/california/?deductions=0&filing=single&income=150000&ira=0&k401=0 https://www.forbes.com/advisor/income-tax-calculator/califor...), or about $8k a month. If you're living somewhere where you struggle to find a studio apartment for less than $2k a month, you probably don't need a car. You can easily feed a single person for $20 a day, =about $600 a month, even if you don't cook. 75% is a stretch, but it's entirely possible to save more than half your salary. You might not want to, but then a lot of people don't want to abandon their giant NPM dependency trees either.
silverquiet 3y ago
So this reminded me of a pretty funny conversation on Seinfeld between Jerry and Kramer, where Kramer explains to Jerry that these are the prisons that people (really men in context) make for themselves[0]. It's done to good comedic effect, but you do also see his point. Not that everyone would want to live like Kramer obviously. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysw3QZIBzMo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysw3QZIBzMo