5 ms·

I’ve wondered this too. I would imagine that there’s a significant market for PCs with iGPUs roughly on par with those of consoles… that’s enough horsepower to

I’ve wondered this too. I would imagine that there’s a significant market for PCs with iGPUs roughly on par with those of consoles… that’s enough horsepower to play all esports titles extremely well as well as most other types of games on medium settings, which is more than good enough for a lot of people. To work around memory issues, these CPUs would need some onboard memory which would increase costs a bit, but the tradeoff is that it’d make for simpler, cheaper low-end motherboards. One can imagine a mini-ITX board with nothing but a CPU socket and a couple of M.2 slots that’d cost significantly less than current entry-level ITX boards. A full system upgrade could be performed by simply swapping out the CPU which would be great for non-enthusiasts; without a power hungry discrete GPU, power requirements are unlikely to increase meaningfully (and in fact are likely to decrease with upgrades), so upgrading wouldn’t necessitate a PSU change. These hypothetical boxes could easily stay relevant for a decade or more. Higher end SKUs of motherboards for this type of CPU could have the usual RAM slots (acting as a second tier of slower RAM in place of swap), PCI slots, etc.

Atotalnoob 3y ago
On die memory increases costs significantly. It would be premium only to put any large on die memory sets
- cduzz 3y ago
  Even for chiplets? I'd expect that you could probably get okay yields at okay costs if you are running a process that's a rev or two behind and making smaller chiplets that are then wired together after testing -- like the pentium pro's cache but for main memory to get 2 / 4 / 8gb ram all on "chip" It'd probably cost more than a normal CPU, but the trade off is much more speed and the actual computer / motherboard at that point would just be a couple USB devices. You (the CPU maker) would grab a lot more of the per-unit profit. Ah -- that's why they don't do it; no vendor would want their milkshake drunk...
  - eropple 3y ago
    AMD does seem to be trying new stuff with Strix Point Halo, but in-package RAM seems like it'd add new physical challenges that probably need a defined market before they swing for the fences? Because it's not just the memory chip, also the interposer it's stacked on top of, which now needs to be bigger, which means you need to find more room in the PCB (today) or a bigger silicon interposer (likely in the near future) which reduces yields, and so on and so forth. If you wanted to have more than the very limited SoC RAM, you'd also then be looking at having multiple DRAM controllers, which also adds to surface area, and so on and so forth.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
An APU with a decent amount of fast on-package memory is going to be expensive. $1000 maybe? It'd be odd to pair a $1000 CPU with a $100 mobo. Maybe it's a good idea, but the market would find it confusing.
wtallis 3y ago
"Some onboard memory" for a socketed CPU is impractical. They're not going to make a die with a wide DRAM controller for on-package memory and then a second narrower DRAM controller for memory slots, especially if the latter was only going to be used for high"end systems. It'll be soldered CPU and DRAM or the usual sockets/slots; I don't see how a mixed approach would make economic sense.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  On-package memory is coming to x86 laptop CPU's, it's a question of when rather than if, IMO. Apple MacBooks are killing x86 laptops, and a large part of the reason is the on-package memory. I'm sure Dell et al are screaming at Intel and AMD asking for competitive chips. You're right that they likely won't make 2 different dies. Desktop AM5 chips will just get a package with some of the memory controller pins unconnected. The big question is whether they'll also package the full width laptop chip with on-package memory in a package for desktop that's incompatible with AM5. If they don't, somebody is going to solder that monster laptop chip into an ITX motherboard. People will grumble about a motherboard that can't upgrade either the CPU or the memory, but if the performance is there they'll still buy it.
  - wtallis 3y ago
    Intel already did on-package memory last year in a custom part for Asus that ran the memory at a higher clock speed than any other Raptor Lake part. It didn't accomplish much because the memory interface was still just 128 bits, it shipped very late, and now there are systems with Intel or AMD processors running at the same memory frequencies using memory that's off package and merely soldered on the motherboard next to the CPU as is traditional for LPDDR. I don't think putting the memory in the package helps much with practically achievable clock speed or bus widths compared to just soldering the memory nearby. (Consoles and discrete GPUs aren't doing on-package memory despite running GDDR at significantly higher frequencies than LPDDR.) And given that, there's even less reason to expect a messy hybrid configuration with half the memory controller connected to on-package LPDDR5x and half routed to DIMM slots, whether or not it uses the AM5 socket.
sapiogram 3y ago
There just isn't enough memory bandwidth. Afaik dual-channel DDR5 still can't hit 100GB/s? Meanwhile the $270 RX 7600 has 288GB/s on-board memory.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  jwells89 says "onboard memory", by which I assume they mean on-package memory like the Apple Mx. The M2 Ultra has 800 GB/s of memory bandwidth...
- adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
  DDR5-6000 is 60GB/s per channel.
  - jauntywundrkind 3y ago
    It's 48GB/s, scaling up from -4800 being 38.4GB/s, according to https://www.servethehome.com/guide-ddr-ddr2-ddr3-ddr4-and-ddr5-bandwidth-by-generation/ https://www.servethehome.com/guide-ddr-ddr2-ddr3-ddr4-and-dd.... Pretty sweet but yeah we kind of need a big jump to get near GPU grade. Intel's Lunar Lake mobile due out this year is supposedly using 16GB or 32GB on-package LPDDR5X RAM. Rumor has it it's 8533MHz. That'd be 68.2GB/s. https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/manufacturing/intels-lunar-lake-cpus-to-use-on-package-samsung-lpddr5x-memory https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/manufacturing/int... Still feels like we need more ram bandwidth. In general I think throughput is the new moat, the new market segmentation; consumer cores now have gobs of CPU and GPU (albiet we seem to have plateau'ed), but limited PCIe and ram bandwidth. We kind of started seeing USB4 compelling some more bandwidth, but I think even Intel is no longer offering USB4 on chip in many upcoming mobile chips, so that's kind of been defeated too. Anyhow, AMD's next Strix Point is due end of year or there-after, but then their big Strix, Strix Halo has quad channels. That'll be exciting as heck. Folks may finally get their console crushers, perhaps.
    - adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
      oh the 60 was me trusting wikipedia which I think must have been counting the 10 bits before the on die ecc vs the 8 after.
mikepurvis 3y ago
Such a simple motherboard could even just put the power supply onboard, with a barrel plug or something, similar to how routers like this are configured: https://www.mini-box.com/Alix-APU-Systems https://www.mini-box.com/Alix-APU-Systems
- tesseract 3y ago
  So much peripheral functionality has been pushed inside the CPU that a modern desktop motherboard is from one point of view essentially a fancy DC-DC converter that happens to also handle I/O port breakout. The motherboard has to translate 12 volts at 10-ish amps from the PSU, into a highly stable 1.2-ish volts at 100-ish amps for the CPU power rail.
- paulmd 3y ago
  Many motherboards have 12V or 19V DC input barrels, I think thin-itx requires it. Generally the keyword you want to search for is “industrial motherboard”, some server motherboards have them too. Asrock Rack and Asrock Industrial and Supermicro are great. https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=AM5D4ID-2T/BCM#Specifications https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=A... https://www.asrockind.com/en-gb/IMB-X1231 https://www.asrockind.com/en-gb/IMB-X1231 https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/X300TM-ITX/index.asp https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/X300TM-ITX/index.asp (I fucking love asrock rack’s design team, absolute madlads and some seriously impressive density etc. they’re out there making the designs people don’t know they want, romed8-2T and genoad8x-2T are fantastic.) Mini-box themselves sell dc-dc converters and “picoPSUs” that do this as well, although idk if they sell one with pcie power plugs. The M350 is a surprisingly high quality case for the price, and while my first picoPSU failed almost immediately (first shutdown iirc) they warrantied it no problem. A very funny trip through some oracle branded ordering/invoicing framework. Good people, good products. My one criticism is that there is very obviously a lot of psu noise. I had a dell laptop and my pc desktop and the picopsu on an audio push-button switch and I kept getting a ton of ground loop and couldn’t figure it out etc and finally noticed it stopped and then came back as I plugged the M350 from the audio switch. Iirc it also showed through usb dac as well. I had the DIN plug brick and I think it has a lot of noise. Intel NUCs are also extremely high quality implementations and have a great aftermarket with brands like akasa and hdplex etc.
0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
I am this close to replacing my desktop (AMD 5500(?) + AMD 7600) with a 7840U (probably in the form of a Minisforum model). Day to day, I do some web browsing and Python programming. It seems silly to have this huge footprint machine sucking down probably 50-100W constantly when I can a book-sized machine that probably idles around 10W for minor performance difference in 99% of cases.
- jwells89 3y ago
  I can see the appeal. My daily driver is an M1 Max MBP which I’m happy with, but if I were to build a Linux productivity box (no gaming, that’s handled by a different machine), something like a 7840U on an ITX board with a cooler just big enough to practically never be audible would sound pretty great.
  - scns 3y ago
    All Ryzen 7000 have a small GPU. It is not meant for gaming but enough for productive work. You can get 12 cores at 65W with the 7900. Could be passively cooled for complete silence. [edit] The 7900 delievers ~89% of the performance of the 7900X at 170W. 7700 & 7600 90% compared to the X counterparts.
- pcchristie 3y ago
  I'm the exact same, but moving from a desktop (which I've always had) to a laptop such as the Framework laptop. I'd just like 10-20% better graphics performance than what's available without losing the 13" form factor.
- nottorp 3y ago
  M2 mac mini on my desk uses 9.7 W right now at "idle". Quotes because I vnced into it to see the power consumption. Under the desk there's a linux box made with a Ryzen 5600G, that one does 20W at idle.

Atotalnoob 3y ago

On die memory increases costs significantly. It would be premium only to put any large on die memory sets

cduzz 3y ago
Even for chiplets? I'd expect that you could probably get okay yields at okay costs if you are running a process that's a rev or two behind and making smaller chiplets that are then wired together after testing -- like the pentium pro's cache but for main memory to get 2 / 4 / 8gb ram all on "chip" It'd probably cost more than a normal CPU, but the trade off is much more speed and the actual computer / motherboard at that point would just be a couple USB devices. You (the CPU maker) would grab a lot more of the per-unit profit. Ah -- that's why they don't do it; no vendor would want their milkshake drunk...
- eropple 3y ago
  AMD does seem to be trying new stuff with Strix Point Halo, but in-package RAM seems like it'd add new physical challenges that probably need a defined market before they swing for the fences? Because it's not just the memory chip, also the interposer it's stacked on top of, which now needs to be bigger, which means you need to find more room in the PCB (today) or a bigger silicon interposer (likely in the near future) which reduces yields, and so on and so forth. If you wanted to have more than the very limited SoC RAM, you'd also then be looking at having multiple DRAM controllers, which also adds to surface area, and so on and so forth.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

An APU with a decent amount of fast on-package memory is going to be expensive. $1000 maybe? It'd be odd to pair a $1000 CPU with a $100 mobo. Maybe it's a good idea, but the market would find it confusing.

wtallis 3y ago

"Some onboard memory" for a socketed CPU is impractical. They're not going to make a die with a wide DRAM controller for on-package memory and then a second narrower DRAM controller for memory slots, especially if the latter was only going to be used for high"end systems. It'll be soldered CPU and DRAM or the usual sockets/slots; I don't see how a mixed approach would make economic sense.

bryanlarsen 3y ago
On-package memory is coming to x86 laptop CPU's, it's a question of when rather than if, IMO. Apple MacBooks are killing x86 laptops, and a large part of the reason is the on-package memory. I'm sure Dell et al are screaming at Intel and AMD asking for competitive chips. You're right that they likely won't make 2 different dies. Desktop AM5 chips will just get a package with some of the memory controller pins unconnected. The big question is whether they'll also package the full width laptop chip with on-package memory in a package for desktop that's incompatible with AM5. If they don't, somebody is going to solder that monster laptop chip into an ITX motherboard. People will grumble about a motherboard that can't upgrade either the CPU or the memory, but if the performance is there they'll still buy it.
- wtallis 3y ago
  Intel already did on-package memory last year in a custom part for Asus that ran the memory at a higher clock speed than any other Raptor Lake part. It didn't accomplish much because the memory interface was still just 128 bits, it shipped very late, and now there are systems with Intel or AMD processors running at the same memory frequencies using memory that's off package and merely soldered on the motherboard next to the CPU as is traditional for LPDDR. I don't think putting the memory in the package helps much with practically achievable clock speed or bus widths compared to just soldering the memory nearby. (Consoles and discrete GPUs aren't doing on-package memory despite running GDDR at significantly higher frequencies than LPDDR.) And given that, there's even less reason to expect a messy hybrid configuration with half the memory controller connected to on-package LPDDR5x and half routed to DIMM slots, whether or not it uses the AM5 socket.

sapiogram 3y ago

There just isn't enough memory bandwidth. Afaik dual-channel DDR5 still can't hit 100GB/s? Meanwhile the $270 RX 7600 has 288GB/s on-board memory.

bryanlarsen 3y ago
jwells89 says "onboard memory", by which I assume they mean on-package memory like the Apple Mx. The M2 Ultra has 800 GB/s of memory bandwidth...
adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
DDR5-6000 is 60GB/s per channel.
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  It's 48GB/s, scaling up from -4800 being 38.4GB/s, according to https://www.servethehome.com/guide-ddr-ddr2-ddr3-ddr4-and-ddr5-bandwidth-by-generation/ https://www.servethehome.com/guide-ddr-ddr2-ddr3-ddr4-and-dd.... Pretty sweet but yeah we kind of need a big jump to get near GPU grade. Intel's Lunar Lake mobile due out this year is supposedly using 16GB or 32GB on-package LPDDR5X RAM. Rumor has it it's 8533MHz. That'd be 68.2GB/s. https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/manufacturing/intels-lunar-lake-cpus-to-use-on-package-samsung-lpddr5x-memory https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/manufacturing/int... Still feels like we need more ram bandwidth. In general I think throughput is the new moat, the new market segmentation; consumer cores now have gobs of CPU and GPU (albiet we seem to have plateau'ed), but limited PCIe and ram bandwidth. We kind of started seeing USB4 compelling some more bandwidth, but I think even Intel is no longer offering USB4 on chip in many upcoming mobile chips, so that's kind of been defeated too. Anyhow, AMD's next Strix Point is due end of year or there-after, but then their big Strix, Strix Halo has quad channels. That'll be exciting as heck. Folks may finally get their console crushers, perhaps.
  - adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
    oh the 60 was me trusting wikipedia which I think must have been counting the 10 bits before the on die ecc vs the 8 after.

mikepurvis 3y ago

Such a simple motherboard could even just put the power supply onboard, with a barrel plug or something, similar to how routers like this are configured: https://www.mini-box.com/Alix-APU-Systems https://www.mini-box.com/Alix-APU-Systems

tesseract 3y ago
So much peripheral functionality has been pushed inside the CPU that a modern desktop motherboard is from one point of view essentially a fancy DC-DC converter that happens to also handle I/O port breakout. The motherboard has to translate 12 volts at 10-ish amps from the PSU, into a highly stable 1.2-ish volts at 100-ish amps for the CPU power rail.
paulmd 3y ago
Many motherboards have 12V or 19V DC input barrels, I think thin-itx requires it. Generally the keyword you want to search for is “industrial motherboard”, some server motherboards have them too. Asrock Rack and Asrock Industrial and Supermicro are great. https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=AM5D4ID-2T/BCM#Specifications https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=A... https://www.asrockind.com/en-gb/IMB-X1231 https://www.asrockind.com/en-gb/IMB-X1231 https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/X300TM-ITX/index.asp https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/X300TM-ITX/index.asp (I fucking love asrock rack’s design team, absolute madlads and some seriously impressive density etc. they’re out there making the designs people don’t know they want, romed8-2T and genoad8x-2T are fantastic.) Mini-box themselves sell dc-dc converters and “picoPSUs” that do this as well, although idk if they sell one with pcie power plugs. The M350 is a surprisingly high quality case for the price, and while my first picoPSU failed almost immediately (first shutdown iirc) they warrantied it no problem. A very funny trip through some oracle branded ordering/invoicing framework. Good people, good products. My one criticism is that there is very obviously a lot of psu noise. I had a dell laptop and my pc desktop and the picopsu on an audio push-button switch and I kept getting a ton of ground loop and couldn’t figure it out etc and finally noticed it stopped and then came back as I plugged the M350 from the audio switch. Iirc it also showed through usb dac as well. I had the DIN plug brick and I think it has a lot of noise. Intel NUCs are also extremely high quality implementations and have a great aftermarket with brands like akasa and hdplex etc.

0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago

I am this close to replacing my desktop (AMD 5500(?) + AMD 7600) with a 7840U (probably in the form of a Minisforum model). Day to day, I do some web browsing and Python programming. It seems silly to have this huge footprint machine sucking down probably 50-100W constantly when I can a book-sized machine that probably idles around 10W for minor performance difference in 99% of cases.

jwells89 3y ago
I can see the appeal. My daily driver is an M1 Max MBP which I’m happy with, but if I were to build a Linux productivity box (no gaming, that’s handled by a different machine), something like a 7840U on an ITX board with a cooler just big enough to practically never be audible would sound pretty great.
- scns 3y ago
  All Ryzen 7000 have a small GPU. It is not meant for gaming but enough for productive work. You can get 12 cores at 65W with the 7900. Could be passively cooled for complete silence. [edit] The 7900 delievers ~89% of the performance of the 7900X at 170W. 7700 & 7600 90% compared to the X counterparts.
pcchristie 3y ago
I'm the exact same, but moving from a desktop (which I've always had) to a laptop such as the Framework laptop. I'd just like 10-20% better graphics performance than what's available without losing the 13" form factor.
nottorp 3y ago
M2 mac mini on my desk uses 9.7 W right now at "idle". Quotes because I vnced into it to see the power consumption. Under the desk there's a linux box made with a Ryzen 5600G, that one does 20W at idle.