5 ms·

Package Dependency Hell

31 points by ramijames 3y ago

recursivedoubts 3y ago
this article isn't really about package dependency hell it is rather about the economic hopelessness of younger people in america and the west more generally america worked when everyone thought there was a chance they could become reasonably rich by working reasonably hard (or unreasonably rich by working unreasonably hard). we are now going to see if it can continue to work when people no longer believe that i don't believe that it can, and i view the increasingly unhinged behavior of our elites as an indication that they believe the same
- ramijames 3y ago
  Exactly.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  > when everyone thought there was a chance they could become reasonably rich by working reasonably hard And what did that correlate with? That's right, with actually having that chance. It's not about beliefs. People can't decide to undo it all and just believe their way back to happiness.
  - chowells 3y ago
    It has never really been true. The difference is that the marketing campaign isn't working anymore. It's become too hard to hide the scope of the failures from anyone with a hint of curiosity. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in the long term, depending on what we decide to do about it. But it's sure a painful thing for now and the near/medium-term future.
  - xboxnolifes 3y ago
    It's 100% about beliefs. If you believe you can become rich by working hard, regardless of truth, you will work hard. If you do not believe you can get rich by working hard, even if it is true, then why would you work hard?
  - recursivedoubts 3y ago
    i see what you mean and i'm sympathetic, but i'm also skeptical of the just-so story that previous generations in america believed in as well (although them believing in it may be a just-so story that I happen to believe in... it gets confusing...)
_yb2s 3y ago
This is the exact problem Thoreau was trying to solve when he wrote Walden, and arguably did solve. Figure out what is actually important to you, and ruthlessly eliminate things from your life that don't contribute towards that. I get disappointed by seeing how many intelligent, motivated, and energetic people mindlessly put all of their energy into these culturally prescribed goals. Once they achieve them, they will eventually feel disappointed, because it isn't really aligned with them. Whenever I'm doing something I really enjoy- like exploring nature in a tiny sailboat together with my kid, there is always this nagging narrative in the back of my head that I shouldn't be doing this: I need to be starting another business or working harder, making more money, etc. Then I could be exploring nature in a giant yacht a decade from now! But wait, I don't want that. I can afford a tiny sailboat, and what I want to do is explore with it right now, which I already can do. I think a deeper aspect is that people also want to feel connected, accepted, and admired by others... and perceive that this requires social status they can only get by winning at some pre-defined life plan. But it doesn't really work that way- the people you would impress by doing your own thing are only the ones you would actually be able to relate to, whose opinion really matters.
EchoChamberMan 3y ago
Companies are raking in record breaking levels of profit, but less than 1% of the US population has nearly 50% of the wealth, and it's still not enough for them, they want more.[1] They need to learn to share. [1] https://www.npr.org/2023/04/19/1170669245/millerknoll-ceo-andi-owen-video-bonuses https://www.npr.org/2023/04/19/1170669245/millerknoll-ceo-an...
- ramijames 3y ago
  The world is all about incentives. If the incentives of company loyalty, a better future, and better economic status are removed for workers, what is the point? I just see rampant greed that is eating everything of any worth. It makes me not want to participate at all.
  - EchoChamberMan 3y ago
    The good thing is those incentives can be restored rather easily, the money is there. Events like the auto union profit share recently, and the EU trying to fight against Apple's dominance are good signs. Sustainable growth is possible, but we need to accept the limitations of reality and fight against concepts like infinite growth.
    - ramijames 3y ago
      I don't really know how you are defining "easy" here. Substantially altering cultural trends is usually a fundamentally difficult thing.
      - EchoChamberMan 3y ago
        True enough, but I do think the right person in the right place at the right time can make a large difference. I also think "Many hands make light work," maybe that is a better strategy.
  - deathanatos 3y ago
    > It makes me not want to participate at all. That's not a choice? Rent must be paid, bread must be put on the table, the future must be planned for, and that means having an idea of where the money will be when I can no longer work. (If you're where you can make such a choice, great. Most of us are nowhere near it.)
csande17 3y ago
"Financial Independence, Retire Early" is the VanillaJS of life strategies: you can do everything you want as long as you ignore the chorus of Twitter thought-leaders insisting that it'll never be enough.
- ramesh31 3y ago
  It's still complete luck at this point with no social safety net. FIRE assumes you will never have a single traumatic event set you back during the course of a 20 year career. Great for anyone who's banking on never being injured, sick, disabled, pregnant, having to care for someone, or being significantly unemployed ever.
  - csande17 3y ago
    The whole point of FIRE is that you are planning on being significantly unemployed, a lot sooner than most people. Even fairly early into that 20-year career, you'll have an emergency fund that can get you through a lot of otherwise-pretty-dire situations. Never hurts to get injury and disability insurance, too.
  - _yb2s 3y ago
    I was trying to do FIRE as a student making only about ~10k a year, and managed to save most of my income despite having a low income by just living really really cheaply for over a decade. By the end of my PhD program I had saved up ~100k when most people would have been that much in debt. Then I had a kid, and couldn't find/afford childcare. So I ended up using my 'FIRE' savings to pay for childcare for several years, essentially using it all up. I was paying about 100% of my take home salary on childcare for two years straight, and able to make it through. Basically the safety net I acquired worked awesome! I didn't get to keep my retirement savings like planned, but I was able to keep doing a low paying postdoc despite needing expensive childcare, which let me keep a low paying postdoc I would have otherwise had to quit... which ultimately led to a high paying and stable career where I've rebuilt my savings after all. Basically, having lots of savings a la FIRE is (1) possible even on an extremely low poverty income- you just need to make hard choices like shared living situations, no car (or a very old car you maintain yourself), home cook all meals from cheap ingredients, etc. and (2) it gives you a safety next with flexibility and options for the type of unforeseen events you are talking about. Having a massive financial safety net is great, even if you end up not being able to use it to retire early, as I was not. It's all about priorities... on almost any income level, you can ruthlessly cut un-needed expenses, and build a safety net/retirement. The poorer you are, the more likely you are to need this for some non-retirement financial emergency, which is all the more reason to do it, because those type of things are even more important than early retirement.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
015a 3y ago
> "The way society is designed is that, if you're lucky, you earn a bit more than you spend every month." 1- Society, in the United States, is not "designed". There doesn't exist a worse word to use to describe what life in the US, and the west in general, is like, because that word, this whole piece really, smells like victim mentality. You need to escape that mentality. Its not just wrong; its harmful to your mental health. 2- What I hate seeing is 24 year olds moving to an awesome downtown apartment in whatever city. Buying a new Toyota (I'm being financially responsible, its not like I'm buying a Tesla or something right). Planning a girls trip to Mexico. New iPhone every other year. Doordashing anything, ever. Teachers and nurses make like $40-$55,000 in my state. Putting aside the fact that its way too little; if you have the skill to write this blog post; to (awkwardly) connect the concept of npm packages with the Bundle Size Of Your Life, you're making more than this. So your excuse is...? The reason you feel that you earn a bit more than you spend each month is because of the financial decisions you've made. Its not the system. Its not society. Its human nature. Its you. Do you think its just a coincidence that most people earn a bit more than they spend? Across every income level? Its a coincidence that this is true for nurses, true for software engineers, and true for married power couple business owners in a million dollar mansion? Congratulations, you've just independently discovered lifestyle inflation. Your expenses are bounded by how much money you make, so if you let them they will balloon to absorb everything you make (and, then, the system will step in and let you spend even more! thanks, system!) You're also circumnavigating your way to describing what is probably burnout. Much has been written about that; maybe the first step is recognizing that this is what you're describing. Here's the second step to recognize: Burnout doesn't usually happen because you're working too hard; it happens when you're working too hard for no reason. You aren't going to be significantly happier by finding a job that's less stressful; that requires less of you; that pays twice as much; your real focus should be on identifying a better reason to work. The two most common ones: That you believe, deeply, in the company's mission; or, to support your loved ones. Another thing I'd add, drawing back to the original metaphor: Nothing is stopping you from throwing things away. Look, yeah, that synthesizer was like $400 and you were so sure you'd learn to make music but it just never happened. I get it. Facebook Marketplace it. Or throw it away. Leave it out by the dumpster where someone can find it and give it new life. Identifying and nuking unused dependencies, The Things You Own, can be very cathartic and good. My plates have these gross calcium water stains on them, but I always put up with it. Could never get it fully off. A few weeks ago a thought occurred to me: I can just throw them away? So, I did. I just threw them away. They were like a $50 Ikea plate set; who cares? Just throw them out. Doing that unlocked a second thought: What if I just bought paper plates? I use like one plate a week. So, I did that. Its fantastic, and works so much better for me.

31 points by ramijames 3y ago

this article isn't really about package dependency hell it is rather about the economic hopelessness of younger people in america and the west more generally america worked when everyone thought there was a chance they could become reasonably rich by working reasonably hard (or unreasonably rich by working unreasonably hard). we are now going to see if it can continue to work when people no longer believe that i don't believe that it can, and i view the increasingly unhinged behavior of our elites as an indication that they believe the same

ramijames 3y ago
Exactly.
drewcoo 3y ago
> when everyone thought there was a chance they could become reasonably rich by working reasonably hard And what did that correlate with? That's right, with actually having that chance. It's not about beliefs. People can't decide to undo it all and just believe their way back to happiness.
- chowells 3y ago
  It has never really been true. The difference is that the marketing campaign isn't working anymore. It's become too hard to hide the scope of the failures from anyone with a hint of curiosity. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in the long term, depending on what we decide to do about it. But it's sure a painful thing for now and the near/medium-term future.
- xboxnolifes 3y ago
  It's 100% about beliefs. If you believe you can become rich by working hard, regardless of truth, you will work hard. If you do not believe you can get rich by working hard, even if it is true, then why would you work hard?
- recursivedoubts 3y ago
  i see what you mean and i'm sympathetic, but i'm also skeptical of the just-so story that previous generations in america believed in as well (although them believing in it may be a just-so story that I happen to believe in... it gets confusing...)

_yb2s 3y ago

This is the exact problem Thoreau was trying to solve when he wrote Walden, and arguably did solve. Figure out what is actually important to you, and ruthlessly eliminate things from your life that don't contribute towards that. I get disappointed by seeing how many intelligent, motivated, and energetic people mindlessly put all of their energy into these culturally prescribed goals. Once they achieve them, they will eventually feel disappointed, because it isn't really aligned with them. Whenever I'm doing something I really enjoy- like exploring nature in a tiny sailboat together with my kid, there is always this nagging narrative in the back of my head that I shouldn't be doing this: I need to be starting another business or working harder, making more money, etc. Then I could be exploring nature in a giant yacht a decade from now! But wait, I don't want that. I can afford a tiny sailboat, and what I want to do is explore with it right now, which I already can do. I think a deeper aspect is that people also want to feel connected, accepted, and admired by others... and perceive that this requires social status they can only get by winning at some pre-defined life plan. But it doesn't really work that way- the people you would impress by doing your own thing are only the ones you would actually be able to relate to, whose opinion really matters.

EchoChamberMan 3y ago

Companies are raking in record breaking levels of profit, but less than 1% of the US population has nearly 50% of the wealth, and it's still not enough for them, they want more.[1] They need to learn to share. [1] https://www.npr.org/2023/04/19/1170669245/millerknoll-ceo-andi-owen-video-bonuses https://www.npr.org/2023/04/19/1170669245/millerknoll-ceo-an...

ramijames 3y ago
The world is all about incentives. If the incentives of company loyalty, a better future, and better economic status are removed for workers, what is the point? I just see rampant greed that is eating everything of any worth. It makes me not want to participate at all.
- EchoChamberMan 3y ago
  The good thing is those incentives can be restored rather easily, the money is there. Events like the auto union profit share recently, and the EU trying to fight against Apple's dominance are good signs. Sustainable growth is possible, but we need to accept the limitations of reality and fight against concepts like infinite growth.
  - ramijames 3y ago
    I don't really know how you are defining "easy" here. Substantially altering cultural trends is usually a fundamentally difficult thing.
    - EchoChamberMan 3y ago
      True enough, but I do think the right person in the right place at the right time can make a large difference. I also think "Many hands make light work," maybe that is a better strategy.
- deathanatos 3y ago
  > It makes me not want to participate at all. That's not a choice? Rent must be paid, bread must be put on the table, the future must be planned for, and that means having an idea of where the money will be when I can no longer work. (If you're where you can make such a choice, great. Most of us are nowhere near it.)

csande17 3y ago

"Financial Independence, Retire Early" is the VanillaJS of life strategies: you can do everything you want as long as you ignore the chorus of Twitter thought-leaders insisting that it'll never be enough.

ramesh31 3y ago
It's still complete luck at this point with no social safety net. FIRE assumes you will never have a single traumatic event set you back during the course of a 20 year career. Great for anyone who's banking on never being injured, sick, disabled, pregnant, having to care for someone, or being significantly unemployed ever.
- csande17 3y ago
  The whole point of FIRE is that you are planning on being significantly unemployed, a lot sooner than most people. Even fairly early into that 20-year career, you'll have an emergency fund that can get you through a lot of otherwise-pretty-dire situations. Never hurts to get injury and disability insurance, too.
- _yb2s 3y ago
  I was trying to do FIRE as a student making only about ~10k a year, and managed to save most of my income despite having a low income by just living really really cheaply for over a decade. By the end of my PhD program I had saved up ~100k when most people would have been that much in debt. Then I had a kid, and couldn't find/afford childcare. So I ended up using my 'FIRE' savings to pay for childcare for several years, essentially using it all up. I was paying about 100% of my take home salary on childcare for two years straight, and able to make it through. Basically the safety net I acquired worked awesome! I didn't get to keep my retirement savings like planned, but I was able to keep doing a low paying postdoc despite needing expensive childcare, which let me keep a low paying postdoc I would have otherwise had to quit... which ultimately led to a high paying and stable career where I've rebuilt my savings after all. Basically, having lots of savings a la FIRE is (1) possible even on an extremely low poverty income- you just need to make hard choices like shared living situations, no car (or a very old car you maintain yourself), home cook all meals from cheap ingredients, etc. and (2) it gives you a safety next with flexibility and options for the type of unforeseen events you are talking about. Having a massive financial safety net is great, even if you end up not being able to use it to retire early, as I was not. It's all about priorities... on almost any income level, you can ruthlessly cut un-needed expenses, and build a safety net/retirement. The poorer you are, the more likely you are to need this for some non-retirement financial emergency, which is all the more reason to do it, because those type of things are even more important than early retirement.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

015a 3y ago

> "The way society is designed is that, if you're lucky, you earn a bit more than you spend every month." 1- Society, in the United States, is not "designed". There doesn't exist a worse word to use to describe what life in the US, and the west in general, is like, because that word, this whole piece really, smells like victim mentality. You need to escape that mentality. Its not just wrong; its harmful to your mental health. 2- What I hate seeing is 24 year olds moving to an awesome downtown apartment in whatever city. Buying a new Toyota (I'm being financially responsible, its not like I'm buying a Tesla or something right). Planning a girls trip to Mexico. New iPhone every other year. Doordashing anything, ever. Teachers and nurses make like $40-$55,000 in my state. Putting aside the fact that its way too little; if you have the skill to write this blog post; to (awkwardly) connect the concept of npm packages with the Bundle Size Of Your Life, you're making more than this. So your excuse is...? The reason you feel that you earn a bit more than you spend each month is because of the financial decisions you've made. Its not the system. Its not society. Its human nature. Its you. Do you think its just a coincidence that most people earn a bit more than they spend? Across every income level? Its a coincidence that this is true for nurses, true for software engineers, and true for married power couple business owners in a million dollar mansion? Congratulations, you've just independently discovered lifestyle inflation. Your expenses are bounded by how much money you make, so if you let them they will balloon to absorb everything you make (and, then, the system will step in and let you spend even more! thanks, system!) You're also circumnavigating your way to describing what is probably burnout. Much has been written about that; maybe the first step is recognizing that this is what you're describing. Here's the second step to recognize: Burnout doesn't usually happen because you're working too hard; it happens when you're working too hard for no reason. You aren't going to be significantly happier by finding a job that's less stressful; that requires less of you; that pays twice as much; your real focus should be on identifying a better reason to work. The two most common ones: That you believe, deeply, in the company's mission; or, to support your loved ones. Another thing I'd add, drawing back to the original metaphor: Nothing is stopping you from throwing things away. Look, yeah, that synthesizer was like $400 and you were so sure you'd learn to make music but it just never happened. I get it. Facebook Marketplace it. Or throw it away. Leave it out by the dumpster where someone can find it and give it new life. Identifying and nuking unused dependencies, The Things You Own, can be very cathartic and good. My plates have these gross calcium water stains on them, but I always put up with it. Could never get it fully off. A few weeks ago a thought occurred to me: I can just throw them away? So, I did. I just threw them away. They were like a $50 Ikea plate set; who cares? Just throw them out. Doing that unlocked a second thought: What if I just bought paper plates? I use like one plate a week. So, I did that. Its fantastic, and works so much better for me.