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Do not forget that when you look at your Steam profile; https://steamcommunity.com/id/[username]/games/?tab=all https://steamcommunity.com/id/[username]/games/

by markx2 3y ago

Do not forget that when you look at your Steam profile; https://steamcommunity.com/id/[username]/games/?tab=all https://steamcommunity.com/id/[username]/games/?tab=all that you own none. Zero You own a license which can be revoked and you - currently - have no recourse. https://gog.com https://gog.com is one alternative, I am sure others here know more.

beretguy 3y ago
> You own a license which can be revoked and you - currently - have no recourse. Correct. In USA it’s all thanks to ProCS v. Zeidenberg: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProCD,_Inc._v._Zeidenberg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProCD,_Inc._v._Zeidenberg As far as I understand based on reading that wiki if company writes in that license that they can take away your ability to use software then you don’t own software that you buy. People need to boycott online only, server dependent games. However, in other countries this may be illegal and needs to be challenged.
- armchairhacker 3y ago
  > As far as I understand based on reading that wiki if company writes in that license that they can take away your ability to use software then you don’t own software that you buy. I didn’t get that at all? The ruling just states that a company can put a license in their software that you have to open first, and you accept once you start using the software. It doesn’t say that licenses that arbitrarily revoke the software are enforceable.
  - beretguy 3y ago
    > However, this did not lead to a victory for Zeidenberg, because the circuit court held that copyright law does not preempt contract law. Since ProCD had made the investments in its business and its specific SelectPhone product, it could require customers to agree to its terms on how to use the product, including a prohibition on copying the information therein regardless of copyright protections. Specifically this part: “it could require customers to agree to its terms on how to use the product”. Since Ubisoft invested money into developing a game they can legally say in their license “at some point you won’t be able to use this software”, which basically translates to “you don’t own software”.
EA-3167 3y ago
> You own a license which can be revoked and you - currently - have no recourse. Well famously there is one recourse, it's just that things like Steam are more convenient. If that changes though, well... ...Arr.
JohnFen 3y ago
Yep. This is why I won't pay money for a product that I can't have in my physical control. It's just not worth it.
transcriptase 3y ago
Sure, but people were saying that 20 years ago when I made my Steam account and so far the sky hasn’t fallen. Meanwhile there are plenty of games I have the CDROM for that won’t work because of hardcoded compatibility requirements, key authentication servers being offline, or multiplayer being tied to a defunct service like MSN zone or GameSpy.
- magospietato 3y ago
  Pragmatic reality vs ideological reality in action. In a world where Steam revokes my licence to a game I have absolutely no ethical concerns about using piracy to retrieve a backup.
  - beretguy 3y ago
    Piracy is not going to save us if the game relies on a server which you can’t run yourself. You can’t even pirate The Crew.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
drexlspivey 3y ago
If a game requires some server to be online somewhere in order to function what difference does it make if you bought it from steam or gog or anywhere else?
- beretguy 3y ago
  It doesn’t. Eventually you won’t be able to play the game regardless. But you mentioned gog. AFAIK gog does not sell games you can’t own.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
    Not true. There are several games on GOG that retain DRM. Not the majority, but they exist in various flavors of requiring a network connection.
    - beretguy 3y ago
      “requiring a network connection” and “relying on a central server that you don’t control” are 2 different things. It’s ok for a game to rely on a server if you can run that server locally on your computer, or be able to host server in general anywhere YOURSELF. Do you mind finding at least 1 such DRM game on a gog, please? I want to look in to it to understand better what you mean.
      - 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
        There is a mega-thread on the forum[0] where the community has started listing such games. Some of them are single-player games which cannot start offline. If I cannot run it without the blessings of a company which will inevitably stop hosting a service, that is not DRM free. I should be able to store the bits on an archival DVD which is playable in N decades without the approval of anybody. A quick skim, I pulled out a few: - Beat Hazard 2 - online DRM. The game can't be started at all without being online. It is fully DRM-ed! - F.E.A.R. - arguably a bug that stays unfixed. Securom remnants weren't removed and can cause the single player game not to start. See post 41 - Prison Tycoon: Under New Management - the main game is DRM free. The add-ons require Galaxy. They don't show up in game after an offline installation on an offline computer. - Spellforce 3 - Skirmishes against the AI require an online connection. - Two Point Hospital - part of the single-player content is gated through online connectivity. I.e. one has to register online and be online to unlock. Plus: core gamplay mechanics (staff handling, diagnostics) are bugged in offline mode. [0] https://www.gog.com/forum/general/drm_on_gog_list_of_singleplayer_games_with_drm/page1 https://www.gog.com/forum/general/drm_on_gog_list_of_singlep... Edit: I was going to add Cult of the Lamb which I previously did not buy from GOG because the developer retained DRM that would progress lock the game. Evidently that block has been removed. Conflicted if I can now buy it- they did correct their bad behavior, but it shouldn’t have been allowed in the first place.
wilg 3y ago
I think you're confused. You "only" own a license for the games you buy in any format, from any online store, or on any physical media.
- beretguy 3y ago
  But I don’t care about owning the license. I don’t care if I’m confused or not. I want to play my game which I paid money for. Ubisoft didn’t tell us they’re going to shut down servers in March 2024. They didn’t tell us they are going to shut down servers at some point in the future AT ALL. They should have let us know the shut down date up front if they knew they won’t run servers forever and/or they should have clearly labeled game as “requires server you can’t control”.
  - wilg 3y ago
    You had ten years to play your online-only racing game. The box was clearly marked with "ONLINE CONNECTION REQUIRED". It also said "SCEA may retire the online portion of this game at any time." and "UBISOFT MAY CANCEL ACCESS TO ONE OR MORE SPECIFIC ONLINE FEATURES UPON A 30-DAY PRIOR NOTICE PUBLISHED AT thecrew-game.ubi.com." (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps4/718281-the-crew/boxes/607124 https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps4/718281-the-crew/boxes/6071...) Plus, you should be smart enough to be aware that purchasing a copy of an online-only game is not a guarantee they will run the servers forever.
  - dangus 3y ago
    Online games are actually labeled exactly the way that you want them to be on the box. They all tell you that they require online connectivity to services that may go away. How can you predict a shutdown date 10 years ahead of time? That’s ridiculous. No business can be held to that standard. They have no way to predict whether it becomes the most popular game of all time or flops like crazy. Hell, in 10 years dozens of game studios have gone out of business entirely. It’s not like they intended to. I’m sure Ubisoft would have loved it if The Crew became the most popular racing game of all time and was the biggest e-sports tournament game on the planet. If you want a forever experience you don’t buy a multiplayer game at all. Heck, you don’t buy anything. If you expect every product you own to last forever you’ll never actually find a product that satisfies your needs. When you buy a car does the manufacturer tell you the exact date when it won’t be financially worth fixing anymore? When you buy a pair of jeans does the company tell you how many years it’ll last before they fade or rip? Hell, my last water heater didn’t last 10 years and that cost a lot more than a game license, and I need that to survive.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by markx2 3y ago

beretguy 3y ago

> You own a license which can be revoked and you - currently - have no recourse. Correct. In USA it’s all thanks to ProCS v. Zeidenberg: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProCD,_Inc._v._Zeidenberg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProCD,_Inc._v._Zeidenberg As far as I understand based on reading that wiki if company writes in that license that they can take away your ability to use software then you don’t own software that you buy. People need to boycott online only, server dependent games. However, in other countries this may be illegal and needs to be challenged.

armchairhacker 3y ago
> As far as I understand based on reading that wiki if company writes in that license that they can take away your ability to use software then you don’t own software that you buy. I didn’t get that at all? The ruling just states that a company can put a license in their software that you have to open first, and you accept once you start using the software. It doesn’t say that licenses that arbitrarily revoke the software are enforceable.
- beretguy 3y ago
  > However, this did not lead to a victory for Zeidenberg, because the circuit court held that copyright law does not preempt contract law. Since ProCD had made the investments in its business and its specific SelectPhone product, it could require customers to agree to its terms on how to use the product, including a prohibition on copying the information therein regardless of copyright protections. Specifically this part: “it could require customers to agree to its terms on how to use the product”. Since Ubisoft invested money into developing a game they can legally say in their license “at some point you won’t be able to use this software”, which basically translates to “you don’t own software”.

EA-3167 3y ago

> You own a license which can be revoked and you - currently - have no recourse. Well famously there is one recourse, it's just that things like Steam are more convenient. If that changes though, well... ...Arr.

JohnFen 3y ago

Yep. This is why I won't pay money for a product that I can't have in my physical control. It's just not worth it.

transcriptase 3y ago

Sure, but people were saying that 20 years ago when I made my Steam account and so far the sky hasn’t fallen. Meanwhile there are plenty of games I have the CDROM for that won’t work because of hardcoded compatibility requirements, key authentication servers being offline, or multiplayer being tied to a defunct service like MSN zone or GameSpy.

magospietato 3y ago
Pragmatic reality vs ideological reality in action. In a world where Steam revokes my licence to a game I have absolutely no ethical concerns about using piracy to retrieve a backup.
- beretguy 3y ago
  Piracy is not going to save us if the game relies on a server which you can’t run yourself. You can’t even pirate The Crew.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

drexlspivey 3y ago

If a game requires some server to be online somewhere in order to function what difference does it make if you bought it from steam or gog or anywhere else?

beretguy 3y ago
It doesn’t. Eventually you won’t be able to play the game regardless. But you mentioned gog. AFAIK gog does not sell games you can’t own.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
  Not true. There are several games on GOG that retain DRM. Not the majority, but they exist in various flavors of requiring a network connection.
  - beretguy 3y ago
    “requiring a network connection” and “relying on a central server that you don’t control” are 2 different things. It’s ok for a game to rely on a server if you can run that server locally on your computer, or be able to host server in general anywhere YOURSELF. Do you mind finding at least 1 such DRM game on a gog, please? I want to look in to it to understand better what you mean.
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
      There is a mega-thread on the forum[0] where the community has started listing such games. Some of them are single-player games which cannot start offline. If I cannot run it without the blessings of a company which will inevitably stop hosting a service, that is not DRM free. I should be able to store the bits on an archival DVD which is playable in N decades without the approval of anybody. A quick skim, I pulled out a few: - Beat Hazard 2 - online DRM. The game can't be started at all without being online. It is fully DRM-ed! - F.E.A.R. - arguably a bug that stays unfixed. Securom remnants weren't removed and can cause the single player game not to start. See post 41 - Prison Tycoon: Under New Management - the main game is DRM free. The add-ons require Galaxy. They don't show up in game after an offline installation on an offline computer. - Spellforce 3 - Skirmishes against the AI require an online connection. - Two Point Hospital - part of the single-player content is gated through online connectivity. I.e. one has to register online and be online to unlock. Plus: core gamplay mechanics (staff handling, diagnostics) are bugged in offline mode. [0] https://www.gog.com/forum/general/drm_on_gog_list_of_singleplayer_games_with_drm/page1 https://www.gog.com/forum/general/drm_on_gog_list_of_singlep... Edit: I was going to add Cult of the Lamb which I previously did not buy from GOG because the developer retained DRM that would progress lock the game. Evidently that block has been removed. Conflicted if I can now buy it- they did correct their bad behavior, but it shouldn’t have been allowed in the first place.

wilg 3y ago

I think you're confused. You "only" own a license for the games you buy in any format, from any online store, or on any physical media.

beretguy 3y ago
But I don’t care about owning the license. I don’t care if I’m confused or not. I want to play my game which I paid money for. Ubisoft didn’t tell us they’re going to shut down servers in March 2024. They didn’t tell us they are going to shut down servers at some point in the future AT ALL. They should have let us know the shut down date up front if they knew they won’t run servers forever and/or they should have clearly labeled game as “requires server you can’t control”.
- wilg 3y ago
  You had ten years to play your online-only racing game. The box was clearly marked with "ONLINE CONNECTION REQUIRED". It also said "SCEA may retire the online portion of this game at any time." and "UBISOFT MAY CANCEL ACCESS TO ONE OR MORE SPECIFIC ONLINE FEATURES UPON A 30-DAY PRIOR NOTICE PUBLISHED AT thecrew-game.ubi.com." (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps4/718281-the-crew/boxes/607124 https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps4/718281-the-crew/boxes/6071...) Plus, you should be smart enough to be aware that purchasing a copy of an online-only game is not a guarantee they will run the servers forever.
- dangus 3y ago
  Online games are actually labeled exactly the way that you want them to be on the box. They all tell you that they require online connectivity to services that may go away. How can you predict a shutdown date 10 years ahead of time? That’s ridiculous. No business can be held to that standard. They have no way to predict whether it becomes the most popular game of all time or flops like crazy. Hell, in 10 years dozens of game studios have gone out of business entirely. It’s not like they intended to. I’m sure Ubisoft would have loved it if The Crew became the most popular racing game of all time and was the biggest e-sports tournament game on the planet. If you want a forever experience you don’t buy a multiplayer game at all. Heck, you don’t buy anything. If you expect every product you own to last forever you’ll never actually find a product that satisfies your needs. When you buy a car does the manufacturer tell you the exact date when it won’t be financially worth fixing anymore? When you buy a pair of jeans does the company tell you how many years it’ll last before they fade or rip? Hell, my last water heater didn’t last 10 years and that cost a lot more than a game license, and I need that to survive.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]