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I think spears (I'm including rifle mounted bayonets here) have pretty much been on the outs since magazine fed firearms became a thing. Definitely since the ad

I think spears (I'm including rifle mounted bayonets here) have pretty much been on the outs since magazine fed firearms became a thing. Definitely since the advent of fully automatic guns. Yes, there have been sporadic bayonet charges in recent times. But they've become extremely rare. In contrast, helmets are as useful as ever. The ballistic protection is improving with the move from resin impregnated Kevelar to UHMWPE[1]. And they're an important mounting point for hearing protection/headphones and night vision - so much so that some people forego ballistic protection entirely in favor of lighter weight "bump" helmets. Heck - "breastplates" have made a comeback in the form of body armor vests, being a sort of combination armor and utility pouch anchor point. --- 1. Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene

bane 3y ago
Isn't the rifle really just a modern spear? Armies with longer spears used to be the one of the deciding factors in ancient battles. Aren't rifles just a more effective way at getting the sharpy bit in to the other guy without having to heft a small tree?
jabl 3y ago
> Yes, there have been sporadic bayonet charges in recent times. But they've become extremely rare. Bayonet charges yes, but a bayonet (or in modern times, more like fastening a knife to the assault rifle) can be nice to have as a sort of last-ditch thing in a close-quarters situation.
- nordsieck 3y ago
  > a bayonet (or in modern times, more like fastening a knife to the assault rifle) I mean... that is what a bayonet is. There's a reason why military rifles still come with bayonet lugs on them. > a bayonet ... can be nice to have as a sort of last-ditch thing in a close-quarters situation. There are a lot of downsides to a bayonet. 1. It's a sharp knife sticking out the end of your rifle. So if you have to transition to a shotgun or sidearm and it flops down to your side because it's on a sling, it could cut you. It can also cut a teammate on accident depending on what you're doing. 2. It increases the length of your rifle by 4-6 inches. Which is huge when it comes to room clearing. There's a reason why 10"-12" barrel rifles are so popular in that role - it's way easier to maneuver through doorways and around obstacles. It's also weight added to the end of the rifle. Not a huge amount, but 2/3 of a pound can still be a problem. Especially if you're fighting off and on for hours. 3. It takes up space and weight allowance on your belt or vest. It could have been 1-2 extra mags. Most people just wouldn't consider it a good tradeoff.
  - 0xffff2 3y ago
    > There's a reason why military rifles still come with bayonet lugs on them. At least in the US military, I'm fairly certain the reason is entirely historical anachronism due to the the incredible longevity of the M-16/M-4 family of rifles. Bayonet training was removed from Army basic training well over a decade ago and a quick glance at the current M-4 replacement program suggests that the bayonet lug has been removed from the requirements for a new Army assault rifle.
    - AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
      [dead]
- Ferret7446 3y ago
  I don't think that's the case. Maneuverability matters in close quarters, and a spear doesn't work if the adversary is too close. If the adversary is far enough for a rifle-length spear to work, shooting them with the rifle also works. Closer than that and you're better off with the knife or your bare hands. (Also, you might be better off using the rifle as a club.)
- MilStdJunkie 3y ago
  No, a bayonet as back up weapon hasn't been effective in a long, long time. We've seen it as a desperation weapon, during Stalingrad and other battles where both sides logistics were stretched beyond - far, far beyond - their breaking point. Fuel, shells, tanks, bullets, then shovels, axes, knives and teeth . . all were weapons of war in the great inferno of the early 20th century . . but no one, ever, would substitute a bayonet for a spare mag on an autofire weapon. Even basement clearing. I can see, in some circumstances, a case for knives as close-in weapons during reconnaissance or other stealth missions, but even in those circumstances, an army with functional supply systems will pack a DeLisle Carbine, a "hush puppy", a Welrod pistol, or one of the many often homebrewed stealth weapons enterprising recon squads often baked up.
hermitcrab 3y ago
I read somewhere that bayonet charges rarely came to hand to hand because either the attackers were mown down or the defenders ran away. No-one in their right mind wants to get stuck with a bayonet. Apparently the NZ Maori battalions in WWII were particularly fond of the bayonet. I can't imagine how bowel-liquifyingly scary it would be to see Maori's with 18 inch bayonets running at you.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

bane 3y ago

Isn't the rifle really just a modern spear? Armies with longer spears used to be the one of the deciding factors in ancient battles. Aren't rifles just a more effective way at getting the sharpy bit in to the other guy without having to heft a small tree?

jabl 3y ago

> Yes, there have been sporadic bayonet charges in recent times. But they've become extremely rare. Bayonet charges yes, but a bayonet (or in modern times, more like fastening a knife to the assault rifle) can be nice to have as a sort of last-ditch thing in a close-quarters situation.

nordsieck 3y ago
> a bayonet (or in modern times, more like fastening a knife to the assault rifle) I mean... that is what a bayonet is. There's a reason why military rifles still come with bayonet lugs on them. > a bayonet ... can be nice to have as a sort of last-ditch thing in a close-quarters situation. There are a lot of downsides to a bayonet. 1. It's a sharp knife sticking out the end of your rifle. So if you have to transition to a shotgun or sidearm and it flops down to your side because it's on a sling, it could cut you. It can also cut a teammate on accident depending on what you're doing. 2. It increases the length of your rifle by 4-6 inches. Which is huge when it comes to room clearing. There's a reason why 10"-12" barrel rifles are so popular in that role - it's way easier to maneuver through doorways and around obstacles. It's also weight added to the end of the rifle. Not a huge amount, but 2/3 of a pound can still be a problem. Especially if you're fighting off and on for hours. 3. It takes up space and weight allowance on your belt or vest. It could have been 1-2 extra mags. Most people just wouldn't consider it a good tradeoff.
- 0xffff2 3y ago
  > There's a reason why military rifles still come with bayonet lugs on them. At least in the US military, I'm fairly certain the reason is entirely historical anachronism due to the the incredible longevity of the M-16/M-4 family of rifles. Bayonet training was removed from Army basic training well over a decade ago and a quick glance at the current M-4 replacement program suggests that the bayonet lug has been removed from the requirements for a new Army assault rifle.
  - AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
    [dead]
Ferret7446 3y ago
I don't think that's the case. Maneuverability matters in close quarters, and a spear doesn't work if the adversary is too close. If the adversary is far enough for a rifle-length spear to work, shooting them with the rifle also works. Closer than that and you're better off with the knife or your bare hands. (Also, you might be better off using the rifle as a club.)
MilStdJunkie 3y ago
No, a bayonet as back up weapon hasn't been effective in a long, long time. We've seen it as a desperation weapon, during Stalingrad and other battles where both sides logistics were stretched beyond - far, far beyond - their breaking point. Fuel, shells, tanks, bullets, then shovels, axes, knives and teeth . . all were weapons of war in the great inferno of the early 20th century . . but no one, ever, would substitute a bayonet for a spare mag on an autofire weapon. Even basement clearing. I can see, in some circumstances, a case for knives as close-in weapons during reconnaissance or other stealth missions, but even in those circumstances, an army with functional supply systems will pack a DeLisle Carbine, a "hush puppy", a Welrod pistol, or one of the many often homebrewed stealth weapons enterprising recon squads often baked up.

hermitcrab 3y ago

I read somewhere that bayonet charges rarely came to hand to hand because either the attackers were mown down or the defenders ran away. No-one in their right mind wants to get stuck with a bayonet. Apparently the NZ Maori battalions in WWII were particularly fond of the bayonet. I can't imagine how bowel-liquifyingly scary it would be to see Maori's with 18 inch bayonets running at you.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]