4 ms·

What they do well is exclude as many people as possible while maintaining a similar level of academic standards as...UVA and Michigan and UC Berkeley, which are

What they do well is exclude as many people as possible while maintaining a similar level of academic standards as...UVA and Michigan and UC Berkeley, which aren't fundamentally exclusionary institutions. I struggle to see what they're doing right.

huytersd 3y ago
I want my elite institutions to be exclusionary.
- laidoffamazon 3y ago
  Cool, I want them to not exist.
  - huytersd 3y ago
    I want the exceptional people in my society to have a fast pass to success so I disagree.
    - laidoffamazon 3y ago
      I want exceptional people to be around the rest of us. Everyone benefits from integration as opposed to intellectual segregation in my opinion. However, your use of the word "exceptional" is intriguing - I want you to be very specific about what you think of "unexceptional" people - do you dislike us? Hate us? What should happen to us? Would you consider yourself to be among those exceptional people? Genuinely curious!
      - huytersd 3y ago
        Unexceptional=the rest of us have plenty to contribute to society, but not nearly on par with someone exceptional. Some people are better than the rest given the current paradigm defined by our society.
        laidoffamazon 3y ago
        Interesting, what do you think the rest of us unexceptional people should do if we're condemned to a life like this? Can you name a few unexceptional people that I can consider role models?
        huytersd 3y ago
        It’s not condemned, it’s knowing your abilities and place. It doesn’t have to be a lower quality life by any means. If you want to look up to unexceptional people, you’ve already lost.
        laidoffamazon 3y ago
        I can't look up to my dad, who probably isn't an exceptional person? He didn't go to Harvard at least. I'm very intrigued now. Who can I look up to, and what is the bar for being exceptional? It's any Harvard admit, or does it have to be a Harvard graduate? Does Brown count? What about Duke or Rice?
paxys 3y ago
How many Presidents, Chief Justices, Nobel laureates, Pulitzer Prize winners, Fortune 500 CEOs has UVA produced? Top institutions don't need to be dragged down to meet the average based on some arbitrary criteria. Harvard's academic standards are fine, and "excluding as many people as possible" is the entire point. If you don't like it, don't apply.
- laidoffamazon 3y ago
  > Presidents, Chief Justices, Nobel laureates, Pulitzer Prize winners, Fortune 500 CEOs has UVA produced A bunch, what's your point? UVA is a very good institution. > Top institutions don't need to be dragged down to meet the average based on some arbitrary criteria "Dragged down" tell us how you really think about the bottom 99.99%! It makes me think you really don't think of the rest of us as proper citizens - should we gate more things to university admissions? Because last time I checked, the current POTUS went to University of Delaware, an institution even less exclusionary than UVA. > If you don't like it, don't apply. I think their influence on society should be crushed, because it's been a net-negative since the introduction of "meritocracy" to their admissions policies.
ytx 3y ago
Every institution with a limited number of slots is exclusionary. Berkeley's admit rate is around 15%, 20% for Michigan and UVA, versus Harvard/MIT around 5%, so in terms of "excluding" the vast majority of applicants, there doesn't seem to be much difference.
- laidoffamazon 3y ago
  There's a huge difference between 15/20% with opportunities to community college transfer and 3-5% acceptance rates without that. That's literally a 4-5x difference. As Morill Act institutions (except for MIT, which is an aberration) Michigan/Harvard/UVA's purpose is also to educate and not to cultivate an elite.
  - ytx 3y ago
    Fair, by that metric it is indeed 4-5x "easier" to get into UVA/Michigan than Harvard/MIT. But it's also undeniable that former still excludes the large majority of applicants. And if everyone in America suddenly wanted to start going to UVA, and its admission rate dropped precipitously, would it not then also fit the definition of being "elitist"?
    - laidoffamazon 3y ago
      No, because it's a public school.
  - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
    Look, you're the one that set the bar at "exclusionary" - by the numbers, these are all highly exclusionary institutions (more than three quarters of people won't get it) - we're just arguing over the fine details at this point. If Harvard reduced financial aid, meaning that more people were dissuaded from applying, and that brought the numbers up to the same - would you be happy? Looking at acceptance rate to define what is good or bad is just weird.
    - laidoffamazon 3y ago

huytersd 3y ago

I want my elite institutions to be exclusionary.

laidoffamazon 3y ago
Cool, I want them to not exist.
- huytersd 3y ago
  I want the exceptional people in my society to have a fast pass to success so I disagree.
  - laidoffamazon 3y ago
    I want exceptional people to be around the rest of us. Everyone benefits from integration as opposed to intellectual segregation in my opinion. However, your use of the word "exceptional" is intriguing - I want you to be very specific about what you think of "unexceptional" people - do you dislike us? Hate us? What should happen to us? Would you consider yourself to be among those exceptional people? Genuinely curious!
    - huytersd 3y ago
      Unexceptional=the rest of us have plenty to contribute to society, but not nearly on par with someone exceptional. Some people are better than the rest given the current paradigm defined by our society.
      - laidoffamazon 3y ago
        Interesting, what do you think the rest of us unexceptional people should do if we're condemned to a life like this? Can you name a few unexceptional people that I can consider role models?
        huytersd 3y ago
        It’s not condemned, it’s knowing your abilities and place. It doesn’t have to be a lower quality life by any means. If you want to look up to unexceptional people, you’ve already lost.
        laidoffamazon 3y ago
        I can't look up to my dad, who probably isn't an exceptional person? He didn't go to Harvard at least. I'm very intrigued now. Who can I look up to, and what is the bar for being exceptional? It's any Harvard admit, or does it have to be a Harvard graduate? Does Brown count? What about Duke or Rice?

paxys 3y ago

How many Presidents, Chief Justices, Nobel laureates, Pulitzer Prize winners, Fortune 500 CEOs has UVA produced? Top institutions don't need to be dragged down to meet the average based on some arbitrary criteria. Harvard's academic standards are fine, and "excluding as many people as possible" is the entire point. If you don't like it, don't apply.

laidoffamazon 3y ago
> Presidents, Chief Justices, Nobel laureates, Pulitzer Prize winners, Fortune 500 CEOs has UVA produced A bunch, what's your point? UVA is a very good institution. > Top institutions don't need to be dragged down to meet the average based on some arbitrary criteria "Dragged down" tell us how you really think about the bottom 99.99%! It makes me think you really don't think of the rest of us as proper citizens - should we gate more things to university admissions? Because last time I checked, the current POTUS went to University of Delaware, an institution even less exclusionary than UVA. > If you don't like it, don't apply. I think their influence on society should be crushed, because it's been a net-negative since the introduction of "meritocracy" to their admissions policies.

ytx 3y ago

Every institution with a limited number of slots is exclusionary. Berkeley's admit rate is around 15%, 20% for Michigan and UVA, versus Harvard/MIT around 5%, so in terms of "excluding" the vast majority of applicants, there doesn't seem to be much difference.

laidoffamazon 3y ago
There's a huge difference between 15/20% with opportunities to community college transfer and 3-5% acceptance rates without that. That's literally a 4-5x difference. As Morill Act institutions (except for MIT, which is an aberration) Michigan/Harvard/UVA's purpose is also to educate and not to cultivate an elite.
- ytx 3y ago
  Fair, by that metric it is indeed 4-5x "easier" to get into UVA/Michigan than Harvard/MIT. But it's also undeniable that former still excludes the large majority of applicants. And if everyone in America suddenly wanted to start going to UVA, and its admission rate dropped precipitously, would it not then also fit the definition of being "elitist"?
  - laidoffamazon 3y ago
    No, because it's a public school.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  Look, you're the one that set the bar at "exclusionary" - by the numbers, these are all highly exclusionary institutions (more than three quarters of people won't get it) - we're just arguing over the fine details at this point. If Harvard reduced financial aid, meaning that more people were dissuaded from applying, and that brought the numbers up to the same - would you be happy? Looking at acceptance rate to define what is good or bad is just weird.
  - laidoffamazon 3y ago