4 ms·

I think you've described the "punitive" notion of prison. There is, as I understand it, also a "reformative" notion of prison: removing dangerous people from so

by ttymck 3y ago

I think you've described the "punitive" notion of prison. There is, as I understand it, also a "reformative" notion of prison: removing dangerous people from society and attempting to rehabilitate them. In the US, I believe the overwhelming preference of the public (the "obvious layman view") is that prison should be punitive. Other cultures seem to find success with more rehabilitation-focused approaches.

aaroninsf 3y ago
And, this success is measureable. Outcomes in terms of overall recidivism, and in total societal cost, just as in the case of universal health care, so great as to make the American disposition appear not just irrational but willfully counterproductive. This country in its current formulation appears incapable of ever escaping the gravity of feverish Christian moralizing and the correlated vicious contempt for objective truth and measurable outcome.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  Honestly, approaching problems empirically and routing around moralizing is one of my great hopes for AI. If it's a black box, nobody can fan outrage that it's not doing {insert moral but maladaptive thing}.
  - vincnetas 3y ago
    people do not need a valid or logical reason to be outraged ;)
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      They don't, but it takes a lot of chutzpah to be angry at dice!
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  > feverish Christian moralizing I realise that Christianity in the USA _means_ (to the average American) something almost unrecognisable to me as an Englishman. But if we're talking about punitive prison systems don't you think that's a little harsh considering a central tenet is the forgiveness of sins.
  - a2800276 3y ago
    Central tenant!? Eye for an eye! Don't mess with Texas. Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt just for looking back at the homos.
  - magnoliakobus 3y ago
    That tenet is unfortunately lost on many people in America who are often the most vocal about their faith.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  > This country in its current formulation appears incapable of ever escaping the gravity of feverish Christian moralizing On the contrary, it sounds like Christian morality would be helpful here; the Bible is pretty pointed about loving everyone (including enemies), forgiveness, and, y'know, specifically helping prisoners[0]. [0] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025%3A36-40&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025%3A...
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> In the US, I believe the overwhelming preference of the public (the "obvious layman view") is that prison should be punitive "There are five main underlying justifications of criminal punishment considered briefly here: retribution; incapacitation; deterrence; rehabilitation and reparation" [1]. Deterrence and retribution are the punitive elements. To my knowledge, no model that excludes any one element works. > Other cultures seem to find success with more rehabilitation-focused approaches The problem is we're in the middle. Not as harsh as Middle Eastern and Asian models. (Counterfactual: Latin America.) Not as rehabilitative as the Nordic models. (Counterfactual: Europe.) We're good at incapacitating criminals. [1] https://www.unodc.org/e4j/en/crime-prevention-criminal-justice/module-7/key-issues/2--justifying-punishment-in-the-community.html https://www.unodc.org/e4j/en/crime-prevention-criminal-justi...

by ttymck 3y ago

aaroninsf 3y ago

And, this success is measureable. Outcomes in terms of overall recidivism, and in total societal cost, just as in the case of universal health care, so great as to make the American disposition appear not just irrational but willfully counterproductive. This country in its current formulation appears incapable of ever escaping the gravity of feverish Christian moralizing and the correlated vicious contempt for objective truth and measurable outcome.

ethbr1 3y ago
Honestly, approaching problems empirically and routing around moralizing is one of my great hopes for AI. If it's a black box, nobody can fan outrage that it's not doing {insert moral but maladaptive thing}.
- vincnetas 3y ago
  people do not need a valid or logical reason to be outraged ;)
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    They don't, but it takes a lot of chutzpah to be angry at dice!
nonrandomstring 3y ago
> feverish Christian moralizing I realise that Christianity in the USA _means_ (to the average American) something almost unrecognisable to me as an Englishman. But if we're talking about punitive prison systems don't you think that's a little harsh considering a central tenet is the forgiveness of sins.
- a2800276 3y ago
  Central tenant!? Eye for an eye! Don't mess with Texas. Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt just for looking back at the homos.
- magnoliakobus 3y ago
  That tenet is unfortunately lost on many people in America who are often the most vocal about their faith.
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
> This country in its current formulation appears incapable of ever escaping the gravity of feverish Christian moralizing On the contrary, it sounds like Christian morality would be helpful here; the Bible is pretty pointed about loving everyone (including enemies), forgiveness, and, y'know, specifically helping prisoners[0]. [0] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025%3A36-40&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025%3A...

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> In the US, I believe the overwhelming preference of the public (the "obvious layman view") is that prison should be punitive "There are five main underlying justifications of criminal punishment considered briefly here: retribution; incapacitation; deterrence; rehabilitation and reparation" [1]. Deterrence and retribution are the punitive elements. To my knowledge, no model that excludes any one element works. > Other cultures seem to find success with more rehabilitation-focused approaches The problem is we're in the middle. Not as harsh as Middle Eastern and Asian models. (Counterfactual: Latin America.) Not as rehabilitative as the Nordic models. (Counterfactual: Europe.) We're good at incapacitating criminals. [1] https://www.unodc.org/e4j/en/crime-prevention-criminal-justice/module-7/key-issues/2--justifying-punishment-in-the-community.html https://www.unodc.org/e4j/en/crime-prevention-criminal-justi...