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> Nowhere in the problem are Monty's knowledge and motivation stated. "and the host, who knows what’s behind the doors, opens another door [..] which has a goa

> Nowhere in the problem are Monty's knowledge and motivation stated. "and the host, who knows what’s behind the doors, opens another door [..] which has a goat." The question is clear: The host (1) knows what is behind each door and (2) always shows a goat. It's clearly a determinate problem.

jncfhnb 3y ago
Doesn’t matter. If you don’t have a guarantee that he will always open a goat door, his opening of the goat door doesn’t give you information.
- KrazyButTrue 3y ago
  > If you don’t have a guarantee that he will always open a goat door... Well you do have that guarantee -- as it is stated in the problem. It's clear that no matter what door you open, you will be shown a goat.
  - jncfhnb 3y ago
    Cite where it is stated then
    - zachm0 3y ago
      There is a link in the article to the first appearance of the Monte Hall problem. https://www.jstor.org/stable/2683689 https://www.jstor.org/stable/2683689 On the last line of the problem he opens an empty box.
      - jncfhnb 3y ago
        It’s still wrong. He needs to declare (or at least he needs to consistently) open an empty box; not any random box or a box of his choosing at his whim. If he opens a random box; you have not learned anything about the keys GIVEN he opened an empty box This paper adds that in as an assumption after the prompt, which I’m pretty sure is not the original prompt
        zachm0 3y ago
        If I understand correctly, you’re saying Monte’s intention (randomly picking an empty box vs purposely picking an empty box) is effecting the odds that the box in hand has keys? Also, do you have any evidence that this isn’t the original?
        jncfhnb 3y ago
        > If I understand correctly, you’re saying Monte’s intention (randomly picking an empty box vs purposely picking an empty box) is effecting the odds that the box in hand has keys? Sort of. If you’re saying the next box is chosen at random then there are 2 of 6 possible end games in which the key is chosen; 2 of 6 in which you pick an empty box and can switch for the keys; and 2 of 6 that both of the remaining are empty. Since the prompt says that you did in fact open an empty box, that removes the 2 where you open the keys. So it’s 50/50. When you know for a fact that the keys will never be chosen, the probability of picking an empty box when you chose an empty box goes from 50% to 100%. Meaning it now occupies twice the probability space. That’s now it’s 2/3 chance of winning. You truly learn nothing if Monte randomly opens one of the doors and it is not the keys. > Also, do you have any evidence that this isn’t the original? The quote in the article?
        btilly 3y ago
        It's how probability works under Bayes' theorem. The probability of A given B is the probability of A and B divided by the probability of observing B. And the probability of observing B depends on counterfactuals of various sorts. "What would happen if...?" And that's where intention comes in. In this case B is "Monty opens an empty box". The probability of the event B depends on Monty's knowledge and intent. If Monty knows where the prize is, and always avoids it, then Monty always opens an empty box. Probability 1. If Monty is clueless, then Monty opens an empty box with probability 2/3. And if Monty is knowledgeable and malicious, then Monty opens an empty box with probability 1/3. Event A is that you have found the prize and Monty found an empty box. We're assuming that this is the probability that you initially found the prize, and so has probability 1/3. And so we get that Savant's Monty leaves you with odds (1/3)/1 = 1/3 of having the prize, ignorant Monty leaves you with odds (1/3)/(2/3) = 1/2 of having the prize, and malicious Monty leaves you with odds (1/3)/(1/3) = 1 of having the prize. I find it absurd that I've never looked at it this way and recognized the fourth possibility. HELPFUL Monty knows the answer, and is giving you every chance. So if you had the prize, helpful Monty would show you that you're a winner, otherwise helpful Monty will give you another chance. What helpful Monty changes is the probability of A and B. If you had the prize, you would have been shown it. Therefore the probability of A and B is 0, and you really, really want to take Monty's hint and switch.
- tshaddox 3y ago
  The statement of the problem is the guarantee, just like the statement of the problem is the guarantee that there is always 1 car and 2 goats, that you always get to initially choose 1 door, etc.
  - jncfhnb 3y ago
    Nope! It states you opened a door and then Monty opened a door. It does not state that Monty would have opened a door if you had picked a different one. If this is not communicated you don’t gain any knowledge from his reveal. The typical proper Monty hall formula states this assumption clearly that he will always open a goat door. The original one does not state this.
    - tshaddox 3y ago
      I don’t disagree that adding “always” to every clause of the problem statement technically makes it less ambiguous.
btilly 3y ago
(Rereads the article.) You're right. The problem is stated multiple times in the article. As is usual, most of the statements do not address knowledge. But Marilyn's own statement did. However she did not address motivation. Monty himself claims that his motivation varied depending on his mood. The actual game had more complications. And his statement about the real game was, "My only advice is, if you can get me to offer you $5,000 not to open the door, take the money and go home." You can find the article I got that quote from at https://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/21/us/behind-monty-hall-s-doors-puzzle-debate-and-answer.html https://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/21/us/behind-monty-hall-s-do....

jncfhnb 3y ago

Doesn’t matter. If you don’t have a guarantee that he will always open a goat door, his opening of the goat door doesn’t give you information.

KrazyButTrue 3y ago
> If you don’t have a guarantee that he will always open a goat door... Well you do have that guarantee -- as it is stated in the problem. It's clear that no matter what door you open, you will be shown a goat.
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  Cite where it is stated then
  - zachm0 3y ago
    There is a link in the article to the first appearance of the Monte Hall problem. https://www.jstor.org/stable/2683689 https://www.jstor.org/stable/2683689 On the last line of the problem he opens an empty box.
    - jncfhnb 3y ago
      It’s still wrong. He needs to declare (or at least he needs to consistently) open an empty box; not any random box or a box of his choosing at his whim. If he opens a random box; you have not learned anything about the keys GIVEN he opened an empty box This paper adds that in as an assumption after the prompt, which I’m pretty sure is not the original prompt
      - zachm0 3y ago
        If I understand correctly, you’re saying Monte’s intention (randomly picking an empty box vs purposely picking an empty box) is effecting the odds that the box in hand has keys? Also, do you have any evidence that this isn’t the original?
        jncfhnb 3y ago
        > If I understand correctly, you’re saying Monte’s intention (randomly picking an empty box vs purposely picking an empty box) is effecting the odds that the box in hand has keys? Sort of. If you’re saying the next box is chosen at random then there are 2 of 6 possible end games in which the key is chosen; 2 of 6 in which you pick an empty box and can switch for the keys; and 2 of 6 that both of the remaining are empty. Since the prompt says that you did in fact open an empty box, that removes the 2 where you open the keys. So it’s 50/50. When you know for a fact that the keys will never be chosen, the probability of picking an empty box when you chose an empty box goes from 50% to 100%. Meaning it now occupies twice the probability space. That’s now it’s 2/3 chance of winning. You truly learn nothing if Monte randomly opens one of the doors and it is not the keys. > Also, do you have any evidence that this isn’t the original? The quote in the article?
        btilly 3y ago
        It's how probability works under Bayes' theorem. The probability of A given B is the probability of A and B divided by the probability of observing B. And the probability of observing B depends on counterfactuals of various sorts. "What would happen if...?" And that's where intention comes in. In this case B is "Monty opens an empty box". The probability of the event B depends on Monty's knowledge and intent. If Monty knows where the prize is, and always avoids it, then Monty always opens an empty box. Probability 1. If Monty is clueless, then Monty opens an empty box with probability 2/3. And if Monty is knowledgeable and malicious, then Monty opens an empty box with probability 1/3. Event A is that you have found the prize and Monty found an empty box. We're assuming that this is the probability that you initially found the prize, and so has probability 1/3. And so we get that Savant's Monty leaves you with odds (1/3)/1 = 1/3 of having the prize, ignorant Monty leaves you with odds (1/3)/(2/3) = 1/2 of having the prize, and malicious Monty leaves you with odds (1/3)/(1/3) = 1 of having the prize. I find it absurd that I've never looked at it this way and recognized the fourth possibility. HELPFUL Monty knows the answer, and is giving you every chance. So if you had the prize, helpful Monty would show you that you're a winner, otherwise helpful Monty will give you another chance. What helpful Monty changes is the probability of A and B. If you had the prize, you would have been shown it. Therefore the probability of A and B is 0, and you really, really want to take Monty's hint and switch.
tshaddox 3y ago
The statement of the problem is the guarantee, just like the statement of the problem is the guarantee that there is always 1 car and 2 goats, that you always get to initially choose 1 door, etc.
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  Nope! It states you opened a door and then Monty opened a door. It does not state that Monty would have opened a door if you had picked a different one. If this is not communicated you don’t gain any knowledge from his reveal. The typical proper Monty hall formula states this assumption clearly that he will always open a goat door. The original one does not state this.
  - tshaddox 3y ago
    I don’t disagree that adding “always” to every clause of the problem statement technically makes it less ambiguous.

btilly 3y ago

(Rereads the article.) You're right. The problem is stated multiple times in the article. As is usual, most of the statements do not address knowledge. But Marilyn's own statement did. However she did not address motivation. Monty himself claims that his motivation varied depending on his mood. The actual game had more complications. And his statement about the real game was, "My only advice is, if you can get me to offer you $5,000 not to open the door, take the money and go home." You can find the article I got that quote from at https://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/21/us/behind-monty-hall-s-doors-puzzle-debate-and-answer.html https://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/21/us/behind-monty-hall-s-do....