3 ms·

So easy and cheap to prepare for, and the potential destruction is basically infinity, but here we are.

superkuh 3y ago
Indeed. There was a strong push for funding for installing and mantaining fast ground fault interrupters after the EMP Commision in congress in 2001 (http://www.empcommission.org/ http://www.empcommission.org/) determined it was the best solution. And then again in 2008. But nothing actually happened besides words.
cogman10 3y ago
I'm not sure that we haven't already prepared for this. Lightning is a thing and fast grounding transformers are the solution to that. As a kid, thunderstorms commonly knocked out the grid. Now as an adult I've rarely seen the power go out (It usually happens due to someone ramming a power line with their car).
- pixl97 3y ago
  Seemingly in these threads a lot of people don't understand solar storms at all. When lighting hits you get a few microsecond burst of a whole lot of power that gets dumped to ground. Your grounding will get very hot from this, but typically you're not getting hit constantly all day in the same grounding location. Now imagine this. You start getting excess power to the point it's starting to drive primary movers on the grid. You disconnect them because you don't want bad shit happening to your generators. But your grid is still generating power, in some places an awful lot of power that is acting more like DC rather than AC. So you're going to dump this to ground right? Have you ever welded? Because when you dump power to ground it's still power and it makes things hot. Unless you build in massive heatsinks you're going to have a problem.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    Your telegraph lines start catching on fire, eh?
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
Honest question, because I don't know: Are fast ground fault interrupters "cheap and easy"? I mean, sure, they're cheap and easy compared to replacing transformers. But they don't just grow on trees, either. What's the lead time on getting one?
- idontwantthis 3y ago
  I meant the transformers. We’re talking a relativey modest amount over a century or more. Governments can handle it.
lenerdenator 3y ago
Every single instance of "being prepared" has to go past an accountant who has to make the math, math for the next 90 days. The conversation will go something like this. Engineer at electric company: "We'd like to get this project on the calendar for the quarter; should make the equipment more resilient against the risk of solar storms." Accountant at electric company: "What are the odds this solar storm happens in the next quarter?" Engineer: "We cannot accurately predict the timing of a solar storm; however, as time goes on, the probability of a solar storm causing damage to our equipment gets closer to 1." Accountant: "That's not enough certainty when compared to the necessity of profitability." scratches grid hardening off priority list Now, "prepared" means "society not collapsing", and "profitability" means that a retired couple can buy a timeshare on a golf course in Florida where they can swing until the dementia sets in, but priorities are priorities.
- njarboe 3y ago
  > Engineer: "We cannot accurately predict the timing of a solar storm; however, as time goes on, the probability of a solar storm causing damage to our equipment gets closer to 1." Engineer: "We cannot accurately predict the timing of a solar storm; however, over a long enough timeframe, the probability of a solar storm causing damage to our equipment is close to 1."
- gamblor956 3y ago
  That's not what the accountants do at a company. The accountants are given the receipts after the engineers have already spent company money, and their job is to account for that spending. The finance department are the people who decide whether the engineers get to spend the money. (They're also known as the FP&A team = financial planning and analysis.)
  - dylan604 3y ago
    I thought the engineers turned in the receipts in hopes of being reimbursed for the critical purchase that the accountants then get to decide if it meets their definition of critical.

Indeed. There was a strong push for funding for installing and mantaining fast ground fault interrupters after the EMP Commision in congress in 2001 (http://www.empcommission.org/ http://www.empcommission.org/) determined it was the best solution. And then again in 2008. But nothing actually happened besides words.

cogman10 3y ago

I'm not sure that we haven't already prepared for this. Lightning is a thing and fast grounding transformers are the solution to that. As a kid, thunderstorms commonly knocked out the grid. Now as an adult I've rarely seen the power go out (It usually happens due to someone ramming a power line with their car).

pixl97 3y ago
Seemingly in these threads a lot of people don't understand solar storms at all. When lighting hits you get a few microsecond burst of a whole lot of power that gets dumped to ground. Your grounding will get very hot from this, but typically you're not getting hit constantly all day in the same grounding location. Now imagine this. You start getting excess power to the point it's starting to drive primary movers on the grid. You disconnect them because you don't want bad shit happening to your generators. But your grid is still generating power, in some places an awful lot of power that is acting more like DC rather than AC. So you're going to dump this to ground right? Have you ever welded? Because when you dump power to ground it's still power and it makes things hot. Unless you build in massive heatsinks you're going to have a problem.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  Your telegraph lines start catching on fire, eh?

AnimalMuppet 3y ago

Honest question, because I don't know: Are fast ground fault interrupters "cheap and easy"? I mean, sure, they're cheap and easy compared to replacing transformers. But they don't just grow on trees, either. What's the lead time on getting one?

idontwantthis 3y ago
I meant the transformers. We’re talking a relativey modest amount over a century or more. Governments can handle it.

lenerdenator 3y ago

Every single instance of "being prepared" has to go past an accountant who has to make the math, math for the next 90 days. The conversation will go something like this. Engineer at electric company: "We'd like to get this project on the calendar for the quarter; should make the equipment more resilient against the risk of solar storms." Accountant at electric company: "What are the odds this solar storm happens in the next quarter?" Engineer: "We cannot accurately predict the timing of a solar storm; however, as time goes on, the probability of a solar storm causing damage to our equipment gets closer to 1." Accountant: "That's not enough certainty when compared to the necessity of profitability." scratches grid hardening off priority list Now, "prepared" means "society not collapsing", and "profitability" means that a retired couple can buy a timeshare on a golf course in Florida where they can swing until the dementia sets in, but priorities are priorities.

njarboe 3y ago
> Engineer: "We cannot accurately predict the timing of a solar storm; however, as time goes on, the probability of a solar storm causing damage to our equipment gets closer to 1." Engineer: "We cannot accurately predict the timing of a solar storm; however, over a long enough timeframe, the probability of a solar storm causing damage to our equipment is close to 1."
gamblor956 3y ago
That's not what the accountants do at a company. The accountants are given the receipts after the engineers have already spent company money, and their job is to account for that spending. The finance department are the people who decide whether the engineers get to spend the money. (They're also known as the FP&A team = financial planning and analysis.)
- dylan604 3y ago
  I thought the engineers turned in the receipts in hopes of being reimbursed for the critical purchase that the accountants then get to decide if it meets their definition of critical.