7 ms·

> Last year, I was flying from Seattle to New York, and I purposely scheduled myself on a non-MAX airplane. I went to the gate. I walked in, sat down and looked

> Last year, I was flying from Seattle to New York, and I purposely scheduled myself on a non-MAX airplane. I went to the gate. I walked in, sat down and looked straight ahead, and lo and behold, there was a 737-8/737-9 safety card. So I got up and I walked off. The flight attendant didn’t want me to get off the plane. And I’m not trying to cause a scene. I just want to get off this plane, and I just don’t think it’s safe. I said I purposely scheduled myself not to fly [on a MAX]. For me, this is the biggest issue. Even if I put in the effort and choose to avoid a specific plane, they will possibly just schedule the exact plane I don't want, AND try to keep me on the plane when I find out. If they're going to keep this plane in the air (they shouldn't at this point), they need to be required to flash a big warning to ticket holders.

dboreham 3y ago
fwiw I've been Boeing-negative since the first crash, and I believe I understand the details of how the aircraft was mis-designed, but I fly on the planes. I believe overall they're now about as safe as any other plane I have the option to use.
- renegade-otter 3y ago
  Thank the "regulatory state". The problem angle of attack widget is required to be redundant in the US - but not on all export cheaper models. This is why the crashes happened abroad. In general, US pilots have better training and experience as well.
- robin_reala 3y ago
  What do you mean by “about as”? As safe? 5% less safe? 20% less safe?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- ajross 3y ago
  Yeah, that's where I am too. Even granting that this is probably the most dangerous airliner design in decades (and, yeah, it probably is), it still remains extremely safe in an absolute sense. If like me you're middle-aged, your chance of dying from any cause on any given day is getting up to around one in a hundred thousand or thereabouts, which is much higher the fraction of fatal crashes in the total list of MAX flights.
  - bastardoperator 3y ago
    Approx. 3700 fatalities a day globally while driving, and no one bats in an eye when it comes to getting in a car.
    - bookofjoe 3y ago
      45k last year in the U.S. = 123/day
      - jemmyw 3y ago
        1.19 million last year globally = 3260/day
        bastardoperator 3y ago
        CDC says 1.35 million per year, this also includes pedestrian and cyclist deaths. https://www.cdc.gov/injury/features/global-road-safety/index.html#:~:text=Each%20year%2C%201.35%20million%20people,on%20roadways%20around%20the%20world.&text=Every%20day%2C%20almost%203%2C700%20people,pedestrians%2C%20motorcyclists%2C%20or%20cyclists https://www.cdc.gov/injury/features/global-road-safety/index....
    - MomoXenosaga 3y ago
      Planes fell out of the sky all the time in the 1930s-60s and it didn't deter the rich, famous and powerful. Because if you wanted to travel from Amsterdam to Batavia by ship it would take weeks...
- ametrau 3y ago
  Right they ironed out all the bugs now in the terrible software that killed people.
  - Log_out_ 3y ago
    I doubt they ironed out the bugs/features in the process that lower the quality for a price. To undo that reorganization would reflect as a massive permanent share value reduction.
- BashiBazouk 3y ago
  Not to mention multiple orders of magnitude safer than driving to the airport.
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    Is it, are there any stats to support this? Driving to the airport is different from driving in general where most accidents happen when you are sleepy or close to home. Most deaths occur on two lane highways
    - alwayslikethis 3y ago
      > close to home This sounds like bad statistics to me. From Google > The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has stated that more than 50 percent of all car crashes happen within 25 miles of drivers' homes. But.. do you not do more than 50% of your driving near your home? This doesn't sound like a meaningful statistic at all.
      - jnxx 3y ago
        The majority of accidents happen in the house. That is why one should sleep outside on the pavement ;-)
    - BashiBazouk 3y ago
      Define close to home. The other responder noted 25 miles. Having lived in cities most my life, I don't think I have ever lived farther than 25 miles to a major airport. But a quick google search: you have somewhere between about a 1 in a 101 to a 1 in 15,000 lifetime chance of dying in a car wreck in the USA and about a 1 in 11,000,000 to 1 in 821,000,000 for lifetime chance of dying in an airplane crash. Even if you take the best odds for cars and the worst odds for airplanes, it's still multiple orders of magnitude...
    - eddof13 3y ago
      flying is not safer than driving- unless you drive 500 miles with 150 other people every time you get in the car- statistics are massaged, and I think risk of accident per journey is better (and is higher in flying) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18439872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18439872
samstave 3y ago
The worst part is that Senior Theatre Engineer, sees that the Theatre is on FIRE - but he calmly just exits the building... "well, at least **I** am not going to die in this dumpster fire..." EDIT: WHAT THE FUCK:??? >>>It's up to the public whether to act on this knowledge. Its up to the public that the engineer knows what hes talking about???? THE PUBLIC should be responsible for your calculations???? JERASUS EFFSINGS CKNSDHIST@!
- pavel_lishin 3y ago
  A better analogy would be him noticing that the fire extinguishers are past their expiry date, and calmly exiting the building on the basis of a slightly higher percentage chance that in case of a fire, the risks are greater.
- joekrill 3y ago
  He's spoken up publicly about this. He was called to testify before Congress. He started a non-profit -- The Foundation for Aviation Safety -- to raise awareness about the issue. So it's not like this guy is keeping this to himself. He's actively trying to raise awareness.
  - samstave 3y ago
    Forgive me, I appreciate your replies.
- NBJack 3y ago
  Not fair. He has been doing his part, and demonstrably so. It's up to the public whether to act on this knowledge. Would you have preferred they start screaming at the top of his lungs that they're all going to die?
FooBarBizBazz 3y ago
Later in the article it says: > Four airlines in the U.S. fly MAX planes: Alaska, American, United and Southwest. So: Don't fly those airlines. It is your responsibility to punish them. (It is also the FAA's responsibility to regulate them, but it's increasingly clear that every regulator is captured. So I'll focus on what I can control.) And since there was an Ethiopian airlines crash, clearly there are also non-US airlines using the MAX, so let's dig more... This website appears to have done the research: https://www.alternativeairlines.com/airlines-not-flying-boeing-737-max https://www.alternativeairlines.com/airlines-not-flying-boei... This should help us boycott the correct airlines. ... Unfortunately, the route I use most frequently is serviced almost exclusively by one of these bad airlines. I do have some alternatives if I'm willing to take more time though. I guess, if I want to put my money where my mouth is, I will need to start using those alternatives.

dboreham 3y ago

fwiw I've been Boeing-negative since the first crash, and I believe I understand the details of how the aircraft was mis-designed, but I fly on the planes. I believe overall they're now about as safe as any other plane I have the option to use.

renegade-otter 3y ago
Thank the "regulatory state". The problem angle of attack widget is required to be redundant in the US - but not on all export cheaper models. This is why the crashes happened abroad. In general, US pilots have better training and experience as well.
robin_reala 3y ago
What do you mean by “about as”? As safe? 5% less safe? 20% less safe?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
ajross 3y ago
Yeah, that's where I am too. Even granting that this is probably the most dangerous airliner design in decades (and, yeah, it probably is), it still remains extremely safe in an absolute sense. If like me you're middle-aged, your chance of dying from any cause on any given day is getting up to around one in a hundred thousand or thereabouts, which is much higher the fraction of fatal crashes in the total list of MAX flights.
- bastardoperator 3y ago
  Approx. 3700 fatalities a day globally while driving, and no one bats in an eye when it comes to getting in a car.
  - bookofjoe 3y ago
    45k last year in the U.S. = 123/day
    - jemmyw 3y ago
      1.19 million last year globally = 3260/day
      - bastardoperator 3y ago
        CDC says 1.35 million per year, this also includes pedestrian and cyclist deaths. https://www.cdc.gov/injury/features/global-road-safety/index.html#:~:text=Each%20year%2C%201.35%20million%20people,on%20roadways%20around%20the%20world.&text=Every%20day%2C%20almost%203%2C700%20people,pedestrians%2C%20motorcyclists%2C%20or%20cyclists https://www.cdc.gov/injury/features/global-road-safety/index....
  - MomoXenosaga 3y ago
    Planes fell out of the sky all the time in the 1930s-60s and it didn't deter the rich, famous and powerful. Because if you wanted to travel from Amsterdam to Batavia by ship it would take weeks...
ametrau 3y ago
Right they ironed out all the bugs now in the terrible software that killed people.
- Log_out_ 3y ago
  I doubt they ironed out the bugs/features in the process that lower the quality for a price. To undo that reorganization would reflect as a massive permanent share value reduction.
BashiBazouk 3y ago
Not to mention multiple orders of magnitude safer than driving to the airport.
- ipaddr 3y ago
  Is it, are there any stats to support this? Driving to the airport is different from driving in general where most accidents happen when you are sleepy or close to home. Most deaths occur on two lane highways
  - alwayslikethis 3y ago
    > close to home This sounds like bad statistics to me. From Google > The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has stated that more than 50 percent of all car crashes happen within 25 miles of drivers' homes. But.. do you not do more than 50% of your driving near your home? This doesn't sound like a meaningful statistic at all.
    - jnxx 3y ago
      The majority of accidents happen in the house. That is why one should sleep outside on the pavement ;-)
  - BashiBazouk 3y ago
    Define close to home. The other responder noted 25 miles. Having lived in cities most my life, I don't think I have ever lived farther than 25 miles to a major airport. But a quick google search: you have somewhere between about a 1 in a 101 to a 1 in 15,000 lifetime chance of dying in a car wreck in the USA and about a 1 in 11,000,000 to 1 in 821,000,000 for lifetime chance of dying in an airplane crash. Even if you take the best odds for cars and the worst odds for airplanes, it's still multiple orders of magnitude...
  - eddof13 3y ago
    flying is not safer than driving- unless you drive 500 miles with 150 other people every time you get in the car- statistics are massaged, and I think risk of accident per journey is better (and is higher in flying) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18439872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18439872

samstave 3y ago

The worst part is that Senior Theatre Engineer, sees that the Theatre is on FIRE - but he calmly just exits the building... "well, at least **I** am not going to die in this dumpster fire..." EDIT: WHAT THE FUCK:??? >>>It's up to the public whether to act on this knowledge. Its up to the public that the engineer knows what hes talking about???? THE PUBLIC should be responsible for your calculations???? JERASUS EFFSINGS CKNSDHIST@!

pavel_lishin 3y ago
A better analogy would be him noticing that the fire extinguishers are past their expiry date, and calmly exiting the building on the basis of a slightly higher percentage chance that in case of a fire, the risks are greater.
joekrill 3y ago
He's spoken up publicly about this. He was called to testify before Congress. He started a non-profit -- The Foundation for Aviation Safety -- to raise awareness about the issue. So it's not like this guy is keeping this to himself. He's actively trying to raise awareness.
- samstave 3y ago
  Forgive me, I appreciate your replies.
NBJack 3y ago
Not fair. He has been doing his part, and demonstrably so. It's up to the public whether to act on this knowledge. Would you have preferred they start screaming at the top of his lungs that they're all going to die?

FooBarBizBazz 3y ago

Later in the article it says: > Four airlines in the U.S. fly MAX planes: Alaska, American, United and Southwest. So: Don't fly those airlines. It is your responsibility to punish them. (It is also the FAA's responsibility to regulate them, but it's increasingly clear that every regulator is captured. So I'll focus on what I can control.) And since there was an Ethiopian airlines crash, clearly there are also non-US airlines using the MAX, so let's dig more... This website appears to have done the research: https://www.alternativeairlines.com/airlines-not-flying-boeing-737-max https://www.alternativeairlines.com/airlines-not-flying-boei... This should help us boycott the correct airlines. ... Unfortunately, the route I use most frequently is serviced almost exclusively by one of these bad airlines. I do have some alternatives if I'm willing to take more time though. I guess, if I want to put my money where my mouth is, I will need to start using those alternatives.