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I think the author misattributed who the modern era punks would be. At least based on the described framework of what punk counter-culture was about and what it

I think the author misattributed who the modern era punks would be. At least based on the described framework of what punk counter-culture was about and what it was countering. Given how much of the mainstream is organized around overwrought advertising, influencering, guruing, and being terminally online... it seems like the modern punks would be the counter-culture that prioritizes being offline, being private, and being whatever the opposite of "fake it 'til you make it" would be called. Genuine and modest?

perihelions 3y ago
- "the counter-culture that prioritizes being offline, being private" Punk's not dead; it's just camera-shy?
- rapind 3y ago
  All the best punks are on insta...
  - whythre 3y ago
    Seem more like posers (literal and figurative).
    - rapind 3y ago
      Agreed. I forgot to add the /s
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
pjmorris 3y ago
If an old punk ethic was 'Do It Yourself' (DIY), maybe the modern punk equivalent would be 'Do It Offline' (DIO.)
- wizerdrobe 3y ago
  I don’t know to what degree it’s “a thing” but I know a lot of 30-something punks from my old scene that are now into a kind of homesteading vibe. Moved out to the surrounding countryside as much for economic as ideological reasons. Some are all the way into off-the-grid, home schooling, etc. Nothing says “Fuck the System!” like solar panels and a wood burning stove I guess?
  - silverquiet 3y ago
    Well, as long as they don't move onto mailing letter bombs a la the Unabomber, it actually sounds pretty appealing to me too. Edit: I see I'm getting a couple downvotes which is fine; I get that the joke isn't in such good taste. The thing is that Kaczynski had a lot of the same critiques of modernity. Perhaps if he had not been a murderer/terrorist, his writing would be a bit more respected, but of course it is more likely he would just be an unknown weirdo living in the woods.
    - BlueTemplar 3y ago
      Not sure how much that was specifically about attracting enough attention to get published, but it's possible that a few decades later he wouldn't have blown up anyone/anything, but instead started a blog ??
  - Pet_Ant 3y ago
    > Nothing says “Fuck the System!” like solar panels and a wood burning stove I guess? Pithily put. I can definitely attest that this is my plan and the plans of a few others I know. Home baked bread and sour dough starter feel pretty anti-corporate to me. That said, I do recognise that going off grid requires heavy machinery and tools that are produced by the biggest of corporations... but somehow Milwaukee tools seems less evil than Nike, because Milwaukee is selling you just tools, versus an identity, a brand, a value system etc.
kjasdghkjh487 3y ago
[dead]
csallen 3y ago
I'm not sure this is the same "type" of group. There have always been those who neglect to adopt the technology of the day or buy heavily into the culture, without also buying into some sort of counter-cultural movement. Today it might be those who eschew social media and being terminally online. In the 90s perhaps it was those who limited their TV time. In my view, it would be inaccurate to describe this group as "subcultural franchise[s] putting on against-the-grain airs" in the way of the punks and the goths and the "blue-haired pronoun bearers." If anything, these are more likely to be people who've spent some time adopting and evaluating what the dominant culture has to offer, then wisely adjusting their participation to healthy levels (which may mean zero), despite societal pressure. They're more "opt-outs" than "opt-againsts".
- im_down_w_otp 3y ago
  I'd also expect them not to be luddites, but rather subversive rejectors. This probably isn't an entirely apt example, but think people who use things like PiHole rather than people who never adopted the internet in the first place.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    That's what the actual Luddite movement was in the first place.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      It seems quite funny that the imagined version of the Luddites, which people always contrast against, does not seem to be a very accurate description of them. Like maybe we don’t even need to contrast against the imaginary version of them because the imaginary Luddites are silly in a way that no real movement is.
timeagain 3y ago
The punks are alive and well tagging freeway overpass signs, dumpster diving, planting flowers in public parks, making their own clothes, and living in communal housing where it’s always someone else’s turn to do the dishes.
- toyg 3y ago
  Most of them are lazy scions of well-off families, who will eventually take the studs off once the trust fund cuts them out. Culturally they are largely dead, reproducing models (like the communes you mention) popularized more than half a century ago.
abetusk 3y ago
Punk rose to prominence, in part, because of their acceptance of technology. They used technology that was once the expensive and in the domain of conservative corporations that was turned into accessible and cheap ways to disseminate ideas. Xerox machines were prominently used to create flyers for shows and distribute zines. Cassette tapes were copied and passed around to anyone who wanted one. VHS was used to record shows and distribute other media. Lowered cost for TV transmission meant not only punk was a topic that could be seen on TV but that local access shows could be used to disseminate media further. "Punk" is tied to the aesthetics of brightly colored hair, Mohawks, patches on jackets, jack boots etc. which coerces anyone who makes claims of being punk in the modern era into a anachronistic pastiche of what punk was in the late 1970s or early 1980s, with washed out "xerox effect" flyers or physical zines. Aesthetics aside, punk was primarily about a DIY ethos of using whatever tools were available to create art, discuss politics or create a scene. The modern day equivalent exists, we just don't call it "punk" because it doesn't have the aesthetics attached. You want to know what modern day punk-rock looks like? It's not emulating some juvenile interpretation of Meditations, it's standing up Mastodon social networks, using Nostr, advocating for the freedom of Julian Assange, creating custom AI models that diagnose breast cancer, pushing libre/free/open source, creating art installations with custom electronics, and on and on. There's one aspect of punk, not the whole aspect but one splinter faction, that was defeatist and pretty much dead on arrival. I only skimmed the article but that's the vein of punk rock the article seems to be channeling. Any movement that positions itself as a rejection of culture is doomed to fail, either because it fizzles out or because it becomes incorporated. The measure shouldn't be how contrary a movement is, it should be how it's trying to shape culture for the better.
- anthk 3y ago
  Gopher and Gemini communities with cheap Atom netbooks or Pentium III-IV/athlon era machines. At least the DIY spirit it's there.
- coldtea 3y ago
  The punk ethos, shortlived as it was as a mainstream culture, and a little longer lived (still short) from some totally uncommercial die-hards, was not about technology at all. Xerox was not some fancy new technology, it as 15+ year old staple at the time. Cassetes were not a thing in the punk scene at the time. They were insignificant in sales in the UK, and no mixtapes, they caught on in the tail end of the 70s, several years after the original punk movement commercialized and died "Punk is dead" came to be. Same, of course, for VHS.
dfxm12 3y ago
Counter culture is one thing, but the important bit is DIY, maybe more specifically DIT, do it together. This isn't about being offline, private, modest, etc., it's about seeing the rat race coming and stepping aside. They understand that ticketmaster & live nation probably own most of the venues in town, so if you don't want to play by their rules, you'll have to spend your entertainment dollars elsewhere, or if you're really into it, start your own venue for you and your friends and fly under the radar. This goes for other industries too. While someone is bellyaching that amazon owns publishing, a "punk" is self publishing, and using their lessons learned to help their friends. In that way, it's like the hacker community... I'm reminded by posts here complaining about ubereats, even in dense cities like LA, SF or NY. Why does it never occur to these people to call the restaurants directly to cut uber eats out of the equation? Yeah, it's like 5% less convenient, but it allays a ton of concerns on both ends of the transaction. It's things like this, regular people helping regular people, not rent seekers...
- BlueTemplar 3y ago
  Speaking of counter-cultural (?) publishing... https://www.ecosophia.net/writing-as-microcosm-part-one-publish-and-perish/ https://www.ecosophia.net/writing-as-microcosm-part-one-publ...
- MSFT_Edging 3y ago
  > to call the restaurants directly I love doing this. I don't understand why people bother with the apps, it's just psychic torture knowing some MBA is getting my hard earned money just for making some radio boxes to middle-man it.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  While it is probably not possible to speak of "the entire punk movement" as a single thing (to the extent that there even is a punk movement per se), but the 1970s punk movement in London was not motivated by: > seeing the rat race coming and stepping aside it was a response to several different elements occuring alongside and simultaneously: * the bleakness of 1970s Britain * the perception of significant barriers to entry into the world of artistic creation (i.e. you needed to be "very good" or even "virtuosic" to participate) * racial dynamics unfolding as the children of the Windrush generation began to come of age, and new waves of immigrants from the "Commonwealth" were more visibly present. * boredom with the latest Yes album There was no rat race coming - almost nobody was going to participate in that (a good and a bad thing, all at once). Now, punk in NYC at about the same time might have been very different, and I'm certain that punk in other places and later times has almost certainly been very different. But that original incarnation was not an attempt to avoid the rat race, it was a desperate reaching for something of one's own (even if that was just a white riot), because society wasn't going to give you anything worth having.
coldtea 3y ago
>Given how much of the mainstream is organized around overwrought advertising, influencering, guruing, and being terminally online... it seems like the modern punks would be the counter-culture that prioritizes being offline, being private, and being whatever the opposite of "fake it 'til you make it" would be called. Genuine and modest? The genuine ones - outside all media attention yes. Because otherwise even that has been packaged and sold by "minimalist" and "slow living" influencers.

perihelions 3y ago

- "the counter-culture that prioritizes being offline, being private" Punk's not dead; it's just camera-shy?

rapind 3y ago
All the best punks are on insta...
- whythre 3y ago
  Seem more like posers (literal and figurative).
  - rapind 3y ago
    Agreed. I forgot to add the /s
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

pjmorris 3y ago

If an old punk ethic was 'Do It Yourself' (DIY), maybe the modern punk equivalent would be 'Do It Offline' (DIO.)

wizerdrobe 3y ago
I don’t know to what degree it’s “a thing” but I know a lot of 30-something punks from my old scene that are now into a kind of homesteading vibe. Moved out to the surrounding countryside as much for economic as ideological reasons. Some are all the way into off-the-grid, home schooling, etc. Nothing says “Fuck the System!” like solar panels and a wood burning stove I guess?
- silverquiet 3y ago
  Well, as long as they don't move onto mailing letter bombs a la the Unabomber, it actually sounds pretty appealing to me too. Edit: I see I'm getting a couple downvotes which is fine; I get that the joke isn't in such good taste. The thing is that Kaczynski had a lot of the same critiques of modernity. Perhaps if he had not been a murderer/terrorist, his writing would be a bit more respected, but of course it is more likely he would just be an unknown weirdo living in the woods.
  - BlueTemplar 3y ago
    Not sure how much that was specifically about attracting enough attention to get published, but it's possible that a few decades later he wouldn't have blown up anyone/anything, but instead started a blog ??
- Pet_Ant 3y ago
  > Nothing says “Fuck the System!” like solar panels and a wood burning stove I guess? Pithily put. I can definitely attest that this is my plan and the plans of a few others I know. Home baked bread and sour dough starter feel pretty anti-corporate to me. That said, I do recognise that going off grid requires heavy machinery and tools that are produced by the biggest of corporations... but somehow Milwaukee tools seems less evil than Nike, because Milwaukee is selling you just tools, versus an identity, a brand, a value system etc.

kjasdghkjh487 3y ago

[dead]

csallen 3y ago

I'm not sure this is the same "type" of group. There have always been those who neglect to adopt the technology of the day or buy heavily into the culture, without also buying into some sort of counter-cultural movement. Today it might be those who eschew social media and being terminally online. In the 90s perhaps it was those who limited their TV time. In my view, it would be inaccurate to describe this group as "subcultural franchise[s] putting on against-the-grain airs" in the way of the punks and the goths and the "blue-haired pronoun bearers." If anything, these are more likely to be people who've spent some time adopting and evaluating what the dominant culture has to offer, then wisely adjusting their participation to healthy levels (which may mean zero), despite societal pressure. They're more "opt-outs" than "opt-againsts".

im_down_w_otp 3y ago
I'd also expect them not to be luddites, but rather subversive rejectors. This probably isn't an entirely apt example, but think people who use things like PiHole rather than people who never adopted the internet in the first place.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  That's what the actual Luddite movement was in the first place.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    It seems quite funny that the imagined version of the Luddites, which people always contrast against, does not seem to be a very accurate description of them. Like maybe we don’t even need to contrast against the imaginary version of them because the imaginary Luddites are silly in a way that no real movement is.

timeagain 3y ago

The punks are alive and well tagging freeway overpass signs, dumpster diving, planting flowers in public parks, making their own clothes, and living in communal housing where it’s always someone else’s turn to do the dishes.

toyg 3y ago
Most of them are lazy scions of well-off families, who will eventually take the studs off once the trust fund cuts them out. Culturally they are largely dead, reproducing models (like the communes you mention) popularized more than half a century ago.

abetusk 3y ago

Punk rose to prominence, in part, because of their acceptance of technology. They used technology that was once the expensive and in the domain of conservative corporations that was turned into accessible and cheap ways to disseminate ideas. Xerox machines were prominently used to create flyers for shows and distribute zines. Cassette tapes were copied and passed around to anyone who wanted one. VHS was used to record shows and distribute other media. Lowered cost for TV transmission meant not only punk was a topic that could be seen on TV but that local access shows could be used to disseminate media further. "Punk" is tied to the aesthetics of brightly colored hair, Mohawks, patches on jackets, jack boots etc. which coerces anyone who makes claims of being punk in the modern era into a anachronistic pastiche of what punk was in the late 1970s or early 1980s, with washed out "xerox effect" flyers or physical zines. Aesthetics aside, punk was primarily about a DIY ethos of using whatever tools were available to create art, discuss politics or create a scene. The modern day equivalent exists, we just don't call it "punk" because it doesn't have the aesthetics attached. You want to know what modern day punk-rock looks like? It's not emulating some juvenile interpretation of Meditations, it's standing up Mastodon social networks, using Nostr, advocating for the freedom of Julian Assange, creating custom AI models that diagnose breast cancer, pushing libre/free/open source, creating art installations with custom electronics, and on and on. There's one aspect of punk, not the whole aspect but one splinter faction, that was defeatist and pretty much dead on arrival. I only skimmed the article but that's the vein of punk rock the article seems to be channeling. Any movement that positions itself as a rejection of culture is doomed to fail, either because it fizzles out or because it becomes incorporated. The measure shouldn't be how contrary a movement is, it should be how it's trying to shape culture for the better.

anthk 3y ago
Gopher and Gemini communities with cheap Atom netbooks or Pentium III-IV/athlon era machines. At least the DIY spirit it's there.
coldtea 3y ago
The punk ethos, shortlived as it was as a mainstream culture, and a little longer lived (still short) from some totally uncommercial die-hards, was not about technology at all. Xerox was not some fancy new technology, it as 15+ year old staple at the time. Cassetes were not a thing in the punk scene at the time. They were insignificant in sales in the UK, and no mixtapes, they caught on in the tail end of the 70s, several years after the original punk movement commercialized and died "Punk is dead" came to be. Same, of course, for VHS.

dfxm12 3y ago

Counter culture is one thing, but the important bit is DIY, maybe more specifically DIT, do it together. This isn't about being offline, private, modest, etc., it's about seeing the rat race coming and stepping aside. They understand that ticketmaster & live nation probably own most of the venues in town, so if you don't want to play by their rules, you'll have to spend your entertainment dollars elsewhere, or if you're really into it, start your own venue for you and your friends and fly under the radar. This goes for other industries too. While someone is bellyaching that amazon owns publishing, a "punk" is self publishing, and using their lessons learned to help their friends. In that way, it's like the hacker community... I'm reminded by posts here complaining about ubereats, even in dense cities like LA, SF or NY. Why does it never occur to these people to call the restaurants directly to cut uber eats out of the equation? Yeah, it's like 5% less convenient, but it allays a ton of concerns on both ends of the transaction. It's things like this, regular people helping regular people, not rent seekers...

BlueTemplar 3y ago
Speaking of counter-cultural (?) publishing... https://www.ecosophia.net/writing-as-microcosm-part-one-publish-and-perish/ https://www.ecosophia.net/writing-as-microcosm-part-one-publ...
MSFT_Edging 3y ago
> to call the restaurants directly I love doing this. I don't understand why people bother with the apps, it's just psychic torture knowing some MBA is getting my hard earned money just for making some radio boxes to middle-man it.
PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
While it is probably not possible to speak of "the entire punk movement" as a single thing (to the extent that there even is a punk movement per se), but the 1970s punk movement in London was not motivated by: > seeing the rat race coming and stepping aside it was a response to several different elements occuring alongside and simultaneously: * the bleakness of 1970s Britain * the perception of significant barriers to entry into the world of artistic creation (i.e. you needed to be "very good" or even "virtuosic" to participate) * racial dynamics unfolding as the children of the Windrush generation began to come of age, and new waves of immigrants from the "Commonwealth" were more visibly present. * boredom with the latest Yes album There was no rat race coming - almost nobody was going to participate in that (a good and a bad thing, all at once). Now, punk in NYC at about the same time might have been very different, and I'm certain that punk in other places and later times has almost certainly been very different. But that original incarnation was not an attempt to avoid the rat race, it was a desperate reaching for something of one's own (even if that was just a white riot), because society wasn't going to give you anything worth having.

coldtea 3y ago

>Given how much of the mainstream is organized around overwrought advertising, influencering, guruing, and being terminally online... it seems like the modern punks would be the counter-culture that prioritizes being offline, being private, and being whatever the opposite of "fake it 'til you make it" would be called. Genuine and modest? The genuine ones - outside all media attention yes. Because otherwise even that has been packaged and sold by "minimalist" and "slow living" influencers.