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Are people that excited about remote keyfobs that no manufacturer will go back to conventional keys that need to be physically inserted in the lock? The advant

by yodon 3y ago

Are people that excited about remote keyfobs that no manufacturer will go back to conventional keys that need to be physically inserted in the lock? The advantages of physically inserting the key in the lock are so numerous.

gambiting 3y ago
I mean, yes, obviously yes. Even ignoring fully keyless solutions, having a remote key is a massive quality of life improvement, I can't imagine going back to a car where you have to put the key in the door. And just having a remote key is not really a security risk, the problem starts with keyless-start systems, but even those have been mostly resolved now with most recent tech.
- LeifCarrotson 3y ago
  It's fascinating that it's obvious to you! I travel a lot for work and drive a lot of rentals with giant fobs and keyless start. It's just not that great. The fobs are bulky and heavy. My pants pockets are neither baggy nor tight, but the fob is more bulky and awkward than my wallet or phone, and doesn't fit a pocket with either. You still have to handle it, the fob just goes in a cupholder instead of into the receiver in the steering column, and you start by pushing a button instead of turning a key. I just don't perceive any advantage to a remote. Many rentals get a bulky cable with the valet key and the fob and the rental tag, but you have to disassemble the door handle and remove the plastic cover clip thing to insert the key, and I miss my 2003 Vibe back home, with the simple, flat, light, mechanical key. Insert and turn to unlock. That, a house key, and a Tile or Airtag fit on a split ring in a pocket next to my wallet and weigh less than 40g. My bag has a big ring with all the other keys that one accumulates, but I really, really value being able to travel light. When do you find value in the ability to lock or unlock the car from a distance? If it's unlocked and you want to lock it, just lock it instead of walking 30 feet away and then trying to lock it. If you are going back to the car and want to unlock it, wait 10 seconds until your hand is at the door handle and then unlock it.
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
    If you live a cold place, then remote start is amazing. You wake up in the morning and your car is covered in ice and frost. You press a button while you have your coffee and the car starts and heats up melting most of it before you even put your shoes on.
  - gambiting 3y ago
    >>When do you find value in the ability to lock or unlock the car from a distance? My kid/wife is going to the car, I can unlock the car for them. Or I'm going to carry something from home to the car, I can unlock it first, put the key in my pocket then go to the car directly without having to fumble with the keys. >>The fobs are bulky and heavy. Interesting, but that's not my experience. Both my Mercedes and Volvo keyless fobs were smaller in size than my current VW keyfob(which is not keyless and has to be inserted in the ignition). I have seen the BMW abomination of a key though and yeah, that is unnecessarily big. >>u still have to handle it, the fob just goes in a cupholder instead of into the receiver in the steering column Uhm, no? Just keep it in your pocket or purse, why would you need to put it in a cupholder? That's the entire point of it - you just keep it on your person somewhere and the car "just" starts. And in general with fully keyless fobs my key just lives in the pocket of my jeans - so as long as I'm wearing them I can open and start my car, I don't ever need to actually handle the key at all. I go to the car, grab the handle and it magically opens. I hop in, press a button and the car starts. I leave the car and touch the handle and the car closes. I suppose that's mechanically somewhat similar to putting the key into the lock, but so much simpler and takes less time. >>I miss my 2003 Vibe back home, with the simple, flat, light, mechanical key. Oh I miss the key for my 1995 Fiat Cinquecento too, that was very nice and small and straightforward. But what made keys big was the immobilizer, not remote control.
  - WorldMaker 3y ago
    Rentals are a bit of a worst case there, too, because you don't have reason to adjust to the bulk and live with it. Also, depending on car company some of the bulk is hiding last resort physical keys and/or just over-compensating and thinking their brand "needs" big heavy keys as a marketing choice. There's not always a lot of reason that they need to be that much bigger than a Tile or Airtag, the raw electronics are generally really similar. Additionally, if it was a personal car, some of them even support using just about any major bluetooth-capable phone (or watch) as a remote and you might not even need the extra bulk of a key beyond your additional wearables. That's really tough for rental cars to support, but a great advantage of modern personal cars as the software improves. (Though with the number of hotel chains that have been moving to keys that work on personal phones, I wouldn't be surprised if rental car companies weren't at least investigating the idea of improving those key flows.)
WorldMaker 3y ago
The advantages of physical keys are less numerous than you may think. The skill floor necessary to pick a physical lock is higher but the skill ceiling to pick "any" physical lock is a lot lower than the skill ceiling to pick "any" properly engineered digital locks. Of course proper engineering is hard and the skill floor will possibly always the dominant thing in news cycles because of the ability to automate the breaks that makes the skill floor really stupidly low. It's a brand new age of "amateur thieves". What won't make as much news is that skill ceiling raise that comes with it and something of the end of an age of "professional thieves". (The final retirements of some of the "Pink Panther" classes of criminals.) To be fair, some of that fear from such news is perfectly valid. Few of us are likely to be intentionally targeted by professional thieves, but many of us could easily be the accidental targets of amateurs.

by yodon 3y ago

gambiting 3y ago

I mean, yes, obviously yes. Even ignoring fully keyless solutions, having a remote key is a massive quality of life improvement, I can't imagine going back to a car where you have to put the key in the door. And just having a remote key is not really a security risk, the problem starts with keyless-start systems, but even those have been mostly resolved now with most recent tech.

LeifCarrotson 3y ago
It's fascinating that it's obvious to you! I travel a lot for work and drive a lot of rentals with giant fobs and keyless start. It's just not that great. The fobs are bulky and heavy. My pants pockets are neither baggy nor tight, but the fob is more bulky and awkward than my wallet or phone, and doesn't fit a pocket with either. You still have to handle it, the fob just goes in a cupholder instead of into the receiver in the steering column, and you start by pushing a button instead of turning a key. I just don't perceive any advantage to a remote. Many rentals get a bulky cable with the valet key and the fob and the rental tag, but you have to disassemble the door handle and remove the plastic cover clip thing to insert the key, and I miss my 2003 Vibe back home, with the simple, flat, light, mechanical key. Insert and turn to unlock. That, a house key, and a Tile or Airtag fit on a split ring in a pocket next to my wallet and weigh less than 40g. My bag has a big ring with all the other keys that one accumulates, but I really, really value being able to travel light. When do you find value in the ability to lock or unlock the car from a distance? If it's unlocked and you want to lock it, just lock it instead of walking 30 feet away and then trying to lock it. If you are going back to the car and want to unlock it, wait 10 seconds until your hand is at the door handle and then unlock it.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
  If you live a cold place, then remote start is amazing. You wake up in the morning and your car is covered in ice and frost. You press a button while you have your coffee and the car starts and heats up melting most of it before you even put your shoes on.
- gambiting 3y ago
  >>When do you find value in the ability to lock or unlock the car from a distance? My kid/wife is going to the car, I can unlock the car for them. Or I'm going to carry something from home to the car, I can unlock it first, put the key in my pocket then go to the car directly without having to fumble with the keys. >>The fobs are bulky and heavy. Interesting, but that's not my experience. Both my Mercedes and Volvo keyless fobs were smaller in size than my current VW keyfob(which is not keyless and has to be inserted in the ignition). I have seen the BMW abomination of a key though and yeah, that is unnecessarily big. >>u still have to handle it, the fob just goes in a cupholder instead of into the receiver in the steering column Uhm, no? Just keep it in your pocket or purse, why would you need to put it in a cupholder? That's the entire point of it - you just keep it on your person somewhere and the car "just" starts. And in general with fully keyless fobs my key just lives in the pocket of my jeans - so as long as I'm wearing them I can open and start my car, I don't ever need to actually handle the key at all. I go to the car, grab the handle and it magically opens. I hop in, press a button and the car starts. I leave the car and touch the handle and the car closes. I suppose that's mechanically somewhat similar to putting the key into the lock, but so much simpler and takes less time. >>I miss my 2003 Vibe back home, with the simple, flat, light, mechanical key. Oh I miss the key for my 1995 Fiat Cinquecento too, that was very nice and small and straightforward. But what made keys big was the immobilizer, not remote control.
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  Rentals are a bit of a worst case there, too, because you don't have reason to adjust to the bulk and live with it. Also, depending on car company some of the bulk is hiding last resort physical keys and/or just over-compensating and thinking their brand "needs" big heavy keys as a marketing choice. There's not always a lot of reason that they need to be that much bigger than a Tile or Airtag, the raw electronics are generally really similar. Additionally, if it was a personal car, some of them even support using just about any major bluetooth-capable phone (or watch) as a remote and you might not even need the extra bulk of a key beyond your additional wearables. That's really tough for rental cars to support, but a great advantage of modern personal cars as the software improves. (Though with the number of hotel chains that have been moving to keys that work on personal phones, I wouldn't be surprised if rental car companies weren't at least investigating the idea of improving those key flows.)

WorldMaker 3y ago

The advantages of physical keys are less numerous than you may think. The skill floor necessary to pick a physical lock is higher but the skill ceiling to pick "any" physical lock is a lot lower than the skill ceiling to pick "any" properly engineered digital locks. Of course proper engineering is hard and the skill floor will possibly always the dominant thing in news cycles because of the ability to automate the breaks that makes the skill floor really stupidly low. It's a brand new age of "amateur thieves". What won't make as much news is that skill ceiling raise that comes with it and something of the end of an age of "professional thieves". (The final retirements of some of the "Pink Panther" classes of criminals.) To be fair, some of that fear from such news is perfectly valid. Few of us are likely to be intentionally targeted by professional thieves, but many of us could easily be the accidental targets of amateurs.