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> their methods are unacceptable and, when understood, are likely to be explicitly rejected I agree, but not for the reasons you've stated. The methods are u

> their methods are unacceptable and, when understood, are likely to be explicitly rejected I agree, but not for the reasons you've stated. The methods are unacceptable, because they cut into profits. The reason anything at all is built in the US isn't because of some intrinsic good it will provide; it's because someone will profit off the building. If the finished product provides some value / service, that's entirely incidental. If you look at it this way, the problem simplifies greatly. It becomes easier to explain why we have failing infrastructure (too costly to maintain = no profit to be made off maintenance), why a lot of new builds seem cheaply done (more expense put into design, materials and execution = less profit), etc etc.

fallingknife 3y ago
Of course someone is going to profit. That's the only reason anything gets built anywhere ever.
- btbuildem 3y ago
  Why were the Pyramids built? The Cathedral of Notre Dame? The American public library system? Or their interstate system, for that matter? Who made bank off contributing to Wikipedia? Was Linus Torvalds driven by a profit motive when creating linux? Just because the West is ethically bankrupt and collapsing upon itself doesn't mean that humanity has always been that morally poor and unimaginative, or that it needs to continue that way.
  - mdhb 3y ago
    There’s a very particular and typically libertarian leaning personality type on the internet who for whatever reason seem to only be able to look at the entirety of the human experience through the lens of economics and they just come to the most ridiculous conclusions.
samatman 3y ago
People who treat profit as a dirty word are responsible for enormous amounts of suffering. The only valid reason to subsidize some piece of infrastructure is if the provisioned public good leads to more overall wealth. I consider the word "wealth" broad enough to cover things like reducing carbon emissions, these things can be (and should be) estimated in monetary terms, but that will always be an approximation. My point is that subsidizing unprofitable transportation which doesn't itself provide value in excess of the subsidy is wrong. That's not public service, it's a boondoggle. The US, like any country, does subsidize infrastructure extensively. This includes the public highway system as well as our remarkable freight rail infrastructure. The reason this works is because the public goods so provisioned pay off extensively in wealth. While this includes the profits of the freighting and trucking companies, who after all won't transport goods if they don't make a profit, it also includes the entire country's population, who benefit from available and cheap goods. There are libertarians who argue that this would work just as well if the roads themselves generate profit, and I think they're wrong about that.
- Arn_Thor 3y ago
  Profit is not a dirty word. I don't think that's an argument anyone is making. Profit is not _sufficient_ motivation to make a lot of infrastructure happen, and until that's recognized we'll be building too little, too late. I think most actually would agree with the rest of your points--I certainly do.
  - samatman 3y ago
    If it isn't profitable overall, it shouldn't be built. Whether or not it should be profitable at the point-of-sale is a different question. But public goods which don't contribute to the common wealth are parasitic makework enriching the few at the expense of the many.
    - Arn_Thor 3y ago
      You're baking in a lot of assumptions in the statement "profitable overall". I take it that you mean "benefits society in a way that more than makes up for its cost" but a private company doesn't care, they naturally want immediate or (relatively) short-term profits. A country's first trans-national railway is naturally almost always a net benefit, to take an example, but it's too expensive for the private sector to build alone and almost certainly wouldn't be properly profitable for decades until the infrastructure grows around it. Some infrastructure or public service building also facilitates something else indirectly, or over a long enough time that it wouldn't feature into any direct calculus. The same goes for services. And how does one quantify this "profitable overall" requirement? This is why big projects are often ultimately a political choice, lambasted by businesses and economists, which often (but not always) are greatly appreciated in hindsight. That shouldn't be carte blanche for people to go out and spend tax money, but it illustrates a certain dilemma.
kjkjadksj 3y ago
Part of it is political pandering too. Iirc a french team made an early plan for cal hsr that involved going straight up the 5 and one day serving the central valley through spurs. To the polticians whose communities that 5 freeway route would have bypassed that was untenable. Now the route snakes through vs following the fastest and certainly far cheaper 5 right of way (since land is already public here too).

fallingknife 3y ago

Of course someone is going to profit. That's the only reason anything gets built anywhere ever.

btbuildem 3y ago
Why were the Pyramids built? The Cathedral of Notre Dame? The American public library system? Or their interstate system, for that matter? Who made bank off contributing to Wikipedia? Was Linus Torvalds driven by a profit motive when creating linux? Just because the West is ethically bankrupt and collapsing upon itself doesn't mean that humanity has always been that morally poor and unimaginative, or that it needs to continue that way.
- mdhb 3y ago
  There’s a very particular and typically libertarian leaning personality type on the internet who for whatever reason seem to only be able to look at the entirety of the human experience through the lens of economics and they just come to the most ridiculous conclusions.

samatman 3y ago

People who treat profit as a dirty word are responsible for enormous amounts of suffering. The only valid reason to subsidize some piece of infrastructure is if the provisioned public good leads to more overall wealth. I consider the word "wealth" broad enough to cover things like reducing carbon emissions, these things can be (and should be) estimated in monetary terms, but that will always be an approximation. My point is that subsidizing unprofitable transportation which doesn't itself provide value in excess of the subsidy is wrong. That's not public service, it's a boondoggle. The US, like any country, does subsidize infrastructure extensively. This includes the public highway system as well as our remarkable freight rail infrastructure. The reason this works is because the public goods so provisioned pay off extensively in wealth. While this includes the profits of the freighting and trucking companies, who after all won't transport goods if they don't make a profit, it also includes the entire country's population, who benefit from available and cheap goods. There are libertarians who argue that this would work just as well if the roads themselves generate profit, and I think they're wrong about that.

Arn_Thor 3y ago
Profit is not a dirty word. I don't think that's an argument anyone is making. Profit is not _sufficient_ motivation to make a lot of infrastructure happen, and until that's recognized we'll be building too little, too late. I think most actually would agree with the rest of your points--I certainly do.
- samatman 3y ago
  If it isn't profitable overall, it shouldn't be built. Whether or not it should be profitable at the point-of-sale is a different question. But public goods which don't contribute to the common wealth are parasitic makework enriching the few at the expense of the many.
  - Arn_Thor 3y ago
    You're baking in a lot of assumptions in the statement "profitable overall". I take it that you mean "benefits society in a way that more than makes up for its cost" but a private company doesn't care, they naturally want immediate or (relatively) short-term profits. A country's first trans-national railway is naturally almost always a net benefit, to take an example, but it's too expensive for the private sector to build alone and almost certainly wouldn't be properly profitable for decades until the infrastructure grows around it. Some infrastructure or public service building also facilitates something else indirectly, or over a long enough time that it wouldn't feature into any direct calculus. The same goes for services. And how does one quantify this "profitable overall" requirement? This is why big projects are often ultimately a political choice, lambasted by businesses and economists, which often (but not always) are greatly appreciated in hindsight. That shouldn't be carte blanche for people to go out and spend tax money, but it illustrates a certain dilemma.

kjkjadksj 3y ago

Part of it is political pandering too. Iirc a french team made an early plan for cal hsr that involved going straight up the 5 and one day serving the central valley through spurs. To the polticians whose communities that 5 freeway route would have bypassed that was untenable. Now the route snakes through vs following the fastest and certainly far cheaper 5 right of way (since land is already public here too).