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> ... ie build 10 identical ... It seems unlikely that a cookie cutter design could just be emplaced in different areas without running into problems in the en

by roenxi 3y ago

> ... ie build 10 identical ... It seems unlikely that a cookie cutter design could just be emplaced in different areas without running into problems in the environmental reviews. Different local conditions would presumably require different local considerations. Projects can get shut down because Red Spotted Scuttlers are spotted in the local area. Or the local laws require different pollution controls. This is a facet of why I say "literally illegal" - I don't think your plan can be executed in a reliable sense while being legally on the straight and narrow path. Certainly not if activist groups start looking to take a project out by lawfare. It is a good idea, but to pull it off requires that nobody wants the project to fail. If someone goes looking it probably breaks rules.

troupo 3y ago
> Red Spotted Scuttlers are spotted in the local area. Has nothing to do with cookie cutter designs. > Or the local laws require different pollution controls. Has very little to do with cookie cutter designs. > I don't think your plan can be executed in a reliable sense while being legally on the straight and narrow path. Strange how literally everyone in the world can figure this out, but not the US.
- roenxi 3y ago
  > Has nothing to do with cookie cutter designs. If you can't build the design, then someone will have to design something else that can be built. If people aren't already using cookie cutter designs, there is a reason for that. The reason may be one that most people don't like, but it is still going to be there. And I am putting that the reason is probably going to be that the law probably does require consideration of site-specific factors. > Strange how literally everyone in the world can figure this out, but not the US. As mentioned, most of the world doesn't apply US standards and laws. And you're speaking a bit strongly. Most of the world doesn't figure infrastructure out. The median for project management and country-wide governance is dysfunctional failure across most of the globe. You can tell because most people are impoverished despite us having all the tools to sort that out for something like a century.
  - troupo 3y ago
    > If you can't build the design, then someone will have to design something else that can be built. Again. This literally has nothing to do with cookie cutter designs. If something cannot be built in the area because there's some local wildlife, there are exactly two choices: - no building is permitted, period, so you build in a different place (or don't build) - you can build, so you chose the cookie cutter design for the type of construction permitted. E.g. you can't build on the ground, but can build a bridge? You literally take "bridge cookie cutter design N" out of 3 cookie cutter designs for a bridge station (or out of the 15 combinations for a modular station because that's what cookie cutter designs are). > If people aren't already using cookie cutter designs, there is a reason for that. It's not. It's the US' insistence on how special and unique they are. > As mentioned, most of the world doesn't apply US standards and laws. US is not as special as you make it out to be. The world also has "Red Spotted Scuttlers" and different pollution considerations based on locations, etc.
    - roenxi 3y ago
      There is a 3rd option - do a custom design that considers site-specific issues. Say there is a project with an unusual requirement. Taking one from my experience, a height limit so that a certain area still gets an appropriate amount of sun. The options are "go", "redesign to be more squat" or "no-go". What I'm giving you is a sketch at how advanced environmental laws actually conflict with the idea of using cookie cutter designs. The ideas are at odds with each other. > The world also has "Red Spotted Scuttlers" Not after a typical infrastructure project. Usually a bunch of habitat gets killed off and it isn't unusual to lose a population of something exotic.
      - troupo 3y ago
        > There is a 3rd option - do a custom design that considers site-specific issues. And this option is extremely rare. > What I'm giving you is a sketch at how advanced environmental laws actually conflict with the idea of using cookie cutter designs. No. What you're giving me is a lie that these are applicable everywhere all the time. You're also trying to sell a lie that the US is so distinct and special and unique that it can't have cookie cutter designs (unlike other countries) because only in the US this applies everywhere all the time. > Not after a typical infrastructure project. Usually a bunch of habitat gets killed off and it isn't unusual to lose a population of something exotic. That is, of course, not as true and not as common as you make it out to be. BTW. I live in Stockholm, in a country obsessed with ecology and pollution etc. Most stations are cookie cutter designs (of course). There's exactly one subway station that never got built precisely because there was endangered wildlife in the area.
Mashimo 3y ago
The article mentions there was a time when LA build a ton of the same schools and it worked.
- roenxi 3y ago
  Yeah of course it works. It is possible that literally everyone knows that approach works. How to build buildings things cheaply is not a mystery to the building builders. The issues is that the people making the decisions either don't want it to be cheap, or aren't allowed to make the cheap decisions. I'm betting option 2.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Not allowed by whom? Them?
    - roenxi 3y ago
      The activists of various stripes, locals, courts and regulators. occasionally bad incentives or requirements by whoever contracts out the work if it is sponsored by a public body.
    - someguydave 3y ago
      No, activists in court, politicians, unions, other bureaucrats, angry NIMBYs, etc Many people can stop initiatives in US politics and very few have the respect/political capital to overrule all the objections
no_wizard 3y ago
What if you looked at all the justifications in the US and engineered for the most onerous ones by default rather than per project? It may raise the initial cost but would likely allow for the repeatability cost savings which could theoretically offset. A cursory non expert look at this suggests that things thst must be followed in the most onerous places also cover lesser places, but I’m no expert. Local environmental reviews remain a real challenge then though assuming it can even be done.

by roenxi 3y ago

troupo 3y ago

> Red Spotted Scuttlers are spotted in the local area. Has nothing to do with cookie cutter designs. > Or the local laws require different pollution controls. Has very little to do with cookie cutter designs. > I don't think your plan can be executed in a reliable sense while being legally on the straight and narrow path. Strange how literally everyone in the world can figure this out, but not the US.

roenxi 3y ago
> Has nothing to do with cookie cutter designs. If you can't build the design, then someone will have to design something else that can be built. If people aren't already using cookie cutter designs, there is a reason for that. The reason may be one that most people don't like, but it is still going to be there. And I am putting that the reason is probably going to be that the law probably does require consideration of site-specific factors. > Strange how literally everyone in the world can figure this out, but not the US. As mentioned, most of the world doesn't apply US standards and laws. And you're speaking a bit strongly. Most of the world doesn't figure infrastructure out. The median for project management and country-wide governance is dysfunctional failure across most of the globe. You can tell because most people are impoverished despite us having all the tools to sort that out for something like a century.
- troupo 3y ago
  > If you can't build the design, then someone will have to design something else that can be built. Again. This literally has nothing to do with cookie cutter designs. If something cannot be built in the area because there's some local wildlife, there are exactly two choices: - no building is permitted, period, so you build in a different place (or don't build) - you can build, so you chose the cookie cutter design for the type of construction permitted. E.g. you can't build on the ground, but can build a bridge? You literally take "bridge cookie cutter design N" out of 3 cookie cutter designs for a bridge station (or out of the 15 combinations for a modular station because that's what cookie cutter designs are). > If people aren't already using cookie cutter designs, there is a reason for that. It's not. It's the US' insistence on how special and unique they are. > As mentioned, most of the world doesn't apply US standards and laws. US is not as special as you make it out to be. The world also has "Red Spotted Scuttlers" and different pollution considerations based on locations, etc.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    There is a 3rd option - do a custom design that considers site-specific issues. Say there is a project with an unusual requirement. Taking one from my experience, a height limit so that a certain area still gets an appropriate amount of sun. The options are "go", "redesign to be more squat" or "no-go". What I'm giving you is a sketch at how advanced environmental laws actually conflict with the idea of using cookie cutter designs. The ideas are at odds with each other. > The world also has "Red Spotted Scuttlers" Not after a typical infrastructure project. Usually a bunch of habitat gets killed off and it isn't unusual to lose a population of something exotic.
    - troupo 3y ago
      > There is a 3rd option - do a custom design that considers site-specific issues. And this option is extremely rare. > What I'm giving you is a sketch at how advanced environmental laws actually conflict with the idea of using cookie cutter designs. No. What you're giving me is a lie that these are applicable everywhere all the time. You're also trying to sell a lie that the US is so distinct and special and unique that it can't have cookie cutter designs (unlike other countries) because only in the US this applies everywhere all the time. > Not after a typical infrastructure project. Usually a bunch of habitat gets killed off and it isn't unusual to lose a population of something exotic. That is, of course, not as true and not as common as you make it out to be. BTW. I live in Stockholm, in a country obsessed with ecology and pollution etc. Most stations are cookie cutter designs (of course). There's exactly one subway station that never got built precisely because there was endangered wildlife in the area.

Mashimo 3y ago

The article mentions there was a time when LA build a ton of the same schools and it worked.

roenxi 3y ago
Yeah of course it works. It is possible that literally everyone knows that approach works. How to build buildings things cheaply is not a mystery to the building builders. The issues is that the people making the decisions either don't want it to be cheap, or aren't allowed to make the cheap decisions. I'm betting option 2.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Not allowed by whom? Them?
  - roenxi 3y ago
    The activists of various stripes, locals, courts and regulators. occasionally bad incentives or requirements by whoever contracts out the work if it is sponsored by a public body.
  - someguydave 3y ago
    No, activists in court, politicians, unions, other bureaucrats, angry NIMBYs, etc Many people can stop initiatives in US politics and very few have the respect/political capital to overrule all the objections

no_wizard 3y ago

What if you looked at all the justifications in the US and engineered for the most onerous ones by default rather than per project? It may raise the initial cost but would likely allow for the repeatability cost savings which could theoretically offset. A cursory non expert look at this suggests that things thst must be followed in the most onerous places also cover lesser places, but I’m no expert. Local environmental reviews remain a real challenge then though assuming it can even be done.