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They are taking issue with the actions necessary to eliminate Hamas. It's not, as you seem to be insinuating, the very idea of there being some kind of militar

They are taking issue with the actions necessary to eliminate Hamas. It's not, as you seem to be insinuating, the very idea of there being some kind of military response to October 7 that they take issue with. Rather - they don't buy your contention that the current operation, the way it is being conducted, is necessary for (or even helpful towards) that goal. Or even for the safe return of the hostages. Meanwhile, by now they find themselves forced to acknowledge certain ulterior motives at play -- based on how the current operation has been conducted on the ground, all the rather abhorrent statements by government officials and public figures, all those batshit insane TikTok videos that the IDF's best and finest have proudly broadcast to the world, etc.

smsm42 3y ago
That's the way of the hypocrite. While I don't object to the military action in theory, as an abstract concept, but as long as any actual military action happens in reality, I would object to it and demand an immediate cessation of it. So what's the point of not objecting in theory, if you object to any instance in practice? > they don't buy your contention that the current operation, the way it is being conducted, is necessary for (or even helpful towards) that goal. Destroying Hamas is not helpful for the goal of destroying Hamas? That's certainly a novel take. I wonder how do you imagine a military operation with the goal of destroying Hamas looking like. Is it, in your mind, being conducted by sending them a sternly formulated emails, expressing your grave concern? Do you realize that Hamas has - or, rather, by now "had" - over 30k soldiers (that we know of), 18 years to dig in and stockpile weapons, explosives, build miles-long tunnel system, establish command points in every hospital, school and mosque that exists in Gaza, and they couldn't care less about any "international law" or war crime statutes? A war with such type of an enemy is not going to look very pretty on your screen. Fortunately, it's also not the goal of it. > all those batshit insane TikTok videos that the IDF's best and finest have proudly broadcast to the world, etc. I have no idea what you're talking about (I don't use Tiktok, for starters, neither I recommend it to anybody else, and I would agree that any IDF soldier that uses it at the site of military action probably should get a stern talking-to by the unit commander, but of course it's inevitable since the soldiers are people, sometimes - very young people, and would occasionally do things that aren't in the best judgement). But whatever "batshit" things you've seen on Tiktok, I don't see how it's relevant to anything. > Meanwhile, by now they find themselves forced to acknowledge certain ulterior motives at play Again, I have no idea what you mean - could you speak your point plainly?
- khokhol 3y ago
  Destroying Hamas is not helpful for the goal of destroying Hamas? What's the point of not objecting in theory, if you object to any instance in practice? Unfortunately it appears that you're either grossly misreading what I'm saying, or (intentionally or otherwise) going through a lot of weird mental gymnastics to make it look like I'm saying things that I'm plainly not. So I'll have to bow out, and let you sort this stuff out on your own.
  - smsm42 3y ago
    It is interesting - though not surprising - that when asked to speak your point plainly, in case I misunderstood you - you complain I am "grossly misreading" it and refuse to do so. Of course if you refuse to speak plainly, it's easy to misunderstand - or, it's easy to say something and then when proven wrong, claim it's the opponent's fault for misreading it.
    - khokhol 3y ago
      The basic point is that, while you seem to think that if people oppose Operation Iron Swords, it's because they take issue with "Israel taking necessary action to defend itself" -- when very obviously that's not what they take issue with at all. What they object to, rather with extremely high (by all appearances intentionally so) number of civilian fatalities. Combined with numerous blatant statements by government officials and public figures in support of a complete removal of the entire population of Gaza. What is normally called a genocide, in other words.

smsm42 3y ago

That's the way of the hypocrite. While I don't object to the military action in theory, as an abstract concept, but as long as any actual military action happens in reality, I would object to it and demand an immediate cessation of it. So what's the point of not objecting in theory, if you object to any instance in practice? > they don't buy your contention that the current operation, the way it is being conducted, is necessary for (or even helpful towards) that goal. Destroying Hamas is not helpful for the goal of destroying Hamas? That's certainly a novel take. I wonder how do you imagine a military operation with the goal of destroying Hamas looking like. Is it, in your mind, being conducted by sending them a sternly formulated emails, expressing your grave concern? Do you realize that Hamas has - or, rather, by now "had" - over 30k soldiers (that we know of), 18 years to dig in and stockpile weapons, explosives, build miles-long tunnel system, establish command points in every hospital, school and mosque that exists in Gaza, and they couldn't care less about any "international law" or war crime statutes? A war with such type of an enemy is not going to look very pretty on your screen. Fortunately, it's also not the goal of it. > all those batshit insane TikTok videos that the IDF's best and finest have proudly broadcast to the world, etc. I have no idea what you're talking about (I don't use Tiktok, for starters, neither I recommend it to anybody else, and I would agree that any IDF soldier that uses it at the site of military action probably should get a stern talking-to by the unit commander, but of course it's inevitable since the soldiers are people, sometimes - very young people, and would occasionally do things that aren't in the best judgement). But whatever "batshit" things you've seen on Tiktok, I don't see how it's relevant to anything. > Meanwhile, by now they find themselves forced to acknowledge certain ulterior motives at play Again, I have no idea what you mean - could you speak your point plainly?

khokhol 3y ago
Destroying Hamas is not helpful for the goal of destroying Hamas? What's the point of not objecting in theory, if you object to any instance in practice? Unfortunately it appears that you're either grossly misreading what I'm saying, or (intentionally or otherwise) going through a lot of weird mental gymnastics to make it look like I'm saying things that I'm plainly not. So I'll have to bow out, and let you sort this stuff out on your own.
- smsm42 3y ago
  It is interesting - though not surprising - that when asked to speak your point plainly, in case I misunderstood you - you complain I am "grossly misreading" it and refuse to do so. Of course if you refuse to speak plainly, it's easy to misunderstand - or, it's easy to say something and then when proven wrong, claim it's the opponent's fault for misreading it.
  - khokhol 3y ago
    The basic point is that, while you seem to think that if people oppose Operation Iron Swords, it's because they take issue with "Israel taking necessary action to defend itself" -- when very obviously that's not what they take issue with at all. What they object to, rather with extremely high (by all appearances intentionally so) number of civilian fatalities. Combined with numerous blatant statements by government officials and public figures in support of a complete removal of the entire population of Gaza. What is normally called a genocide, in other words.