7 ms·

You don't have to Flowers for Algernon your own productivity just because other folks working in the same firm, in the same industry, in the same country, whate

by patio11 15y ago

You don't have to Flowers for Algernon your own productivity just because other folks working in the same firm, in the same industry, in the same country, whatever haven't caught on that computers are eating the world yet. There's nothing unethical about earning the lion's share of the bonus pool assuming the human-assisted script is, indeed, an acceptable substitute for elbow grease. (There are plausible reasons why it might not be but that isn't the way I'd bet.) There's a common mindset on Reddit that I struggle to find a name for but I know it when I see it: "You're not a scumbag, but the gravy train will have to end eventually. Your company will likely catch on and make changes to the data entry process." The size of the pie is fixed, the allocations of the pie are controlled by other people, and a mouse who successfully steals a few crumbs from the pie is a) stealing and b) must guard his stolen crumbs against the predations of other mice. That is a mindset I do not associate with rich people. I'd expect them to think something closer to "Now would be an excellent time to contact the decisionmaker at my client and propose restructuring their business process for a 20% discount to the total cost of everything right now."

irunbackwards 15y ago
... was that an HN profanity filter or an awesome colloquialism? (Flowers for Algernon)
- stdbrouw 15y ago
  It's a book.
  - qohen 15y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon
- patio11 15y ago
  It's a literary allusion, though to the wrong short story. (See sibling comment.) The right short story depicts a dystopian America where the Handicapper General, a government official, attempts to achieve equality by bringing everyone down to the same level, for example by attaching lead weights to graceful ballerinas so that people who are not graceful ballerinas are not made to feel bad when watching them perform.
EricDeb 15y ago
I agree. I think a business person would either tell his boss or find a way to start a business associated with automating similar data entry. A person who doesn't say anything and tries to "get theirs in the short run" will eventually lose out. It's not a huge ethical concern in my opinion, but it represents an unproductive attitude towards creating value/wealth that you identified perfectly in your post.
msutherl 15y ago
I think there's a difficult decision to be made between making decent money working 8 hours per week and taking the risk of leveraging your skills to bump yourself up a level in a data-entry operation. Lacking details, the first scenario seems more attractive to me. I would encourage the OP to develop another money-making operation on the side while he has some free time.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
nknight 15y ago
The mindset you speak of, using words like "client" and "contact the decision maker", is associated with people who are used to having a great deal more power and influence than somebody hired to be a data entry grunt. The mindset may be useful for climbing out of the data entry grunt "class", but probably not for "fixing" his existing employer's practices. Someone on that level in a company of any substantial size is going to be ignored, disciplined, or outright fired for rocking the boat.
- patio11 15y ago
  Part of leveling up from peon to not-quite-sure-but-definitely-not-peon was learning how to talk the part. (Funny sidenote: About ten years to the day ago, I put in a proposal at a particular megacorp to script up something rather than spending $15,000 having the seasonal data entry clerks give themselves carpal tunnel syndrome doing it manually. It was not accepted, and my hands hurt like the dickens for most of the summer.)
  - lupatus 15y ago
    I started wearing a suit and giving screwed-up smiles for answers like the Jim Halpert character on The Office (American version). Everyone at the office thought I was the best thing since sliced bread. * * * It didn't hurt that I accomplished more work than everyone else while socializing more (meaning I went to the office parties/brunches and laughed at the appropriate times).
hkmurakami 15y ago
Here is an anecdote: A similar data-entry grunt creates a set of excel macros on his private time at home, then presents his work to his team at a meeting. He surely expected to be met with praise, for saving countless hours of mind-numbing work so that the man-hours could be used on more creative and challenging tasks. His high hopes for his fellow coworkers and his own future would be dashed though. The employee was branded as a "hacker" (in the Hollywood movie sense), and was ostracized. He eventually developed clinical depression, and resigned from the company. Where did this happen? The story is probably not unfamiliar to patio11, who lives in the country where this occurred: Japan. P.S.: I wish I had been a Hacker News reader back when I lived in Nagoya from 2009-2010. It would have been nice to talk to you in person :).
- wheaties 15y ago
  Happened in America too. Boss took the "hacker" to the side and said "Look, I'd have to fire my entire staff if the higher ups learned of this and then I'd be out of a job too." Ah, nothing like firing the guy who could save your company tons of money just in self-interest.
  - 3143 15y ago
    What was stopping the guy from skipping his boss and talking to the higher-ups himself? He could probably prove his boss right by taking his boss' job.
    - kamaal 15y ago
      In most organizations, Management layers aren't layers. They are actually clubs that protect each others interests. This goes on until the system gather enough dust to cause it to collapse. Its futile to complain to a manager about another manager in general. Those people know each other, and they will never side with you. All that politics will only back fire on you.
      - Confusion 15y ago
        Edit: I now realize you are talking about your experience in India, where of course things may be different. However, I would think that even there, 'managers' are a distinct subgroup from other human beings. Original: That's an unnecessarily negative view. Managers are people too and come in all the variations people come. Some of them care about whether the company does well, just like people whose title doesn't contain the word 'manager'. Their relation with other managers is exactly like the relation of your manager with you. That someones title includes the word 'manager' doesn't mean they suddenly like all other people whose title includes the word 'manager' and it doesn't mean he suddenly considers them equals. Being a 'manager' is not a binary thing. Team leaders are managers, even when their title doesn't say so.
redthrowaway 15y ago
>You don't have to Flowers for Algernon your own productivity Are you thinking of Harrison Bergeron?
- patio11 15y ago
  I was indeed! Curses, my memory of middle school is failing me.
  - redthrowaway 15y ago
    No worries. I often make the same mistake, to the point where I knew what you were referring to but had to break out the googles because I wasn't sure if it was the right story. Both are excellent, btw.
jacalata 15y ago
I didn't take away anything like that from that sentence. I felt that he was saying "the pie is not fixed, and when your company realises that they can get the same results with a much smaller pie, most of your co-workers will be fired, possibly yourself along with them, and replaced with the script you wrote. Prepare to find another pie."
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

by patio11 15y ago

irunbackwards 15y ago

... was that an HN profanity filter or an awesome colloquialism? (Flowers for Algernon)

stdbrouw 15y ago
It's a book.
- qohen 15y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon
patio11 15y ago
It's a literary allusion, though to the wrong short story. (See sibling comment.) The right short story depicts a dystopian America where the Handicapper General, a government official, attempts to achieve equality by bringing everyone down to the same level, for example by attaching lead weights to graceful ballerinas so that people who are not graceful ballerinas are not made to feel bad when watching them perform.

EricDeb 15y ago

I agree. I think a business person would either tell his boss or find a way to start a business associated with automating similar data entry. A person who doesn't say anything and tries to "get theirs in the short run" will eventually lose out. It's not a huge ethical concern in my opinion, but it represents an unproductive attitude towards creating value/wealth that you identified perfectly in your post.

msutherl 15y ago

I think there's a difficult decision to be made between making decent money working 8 hours per week and taking the risk of leveraging your skills to bump yourself up a level in a data-entry operation. Lacking details, the first scenario seems more attractive to me. I would encourage the OP to develop another money-making operation on the side while he has some free time.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

nknight 15y ago

The mindset you speak of, using words like "client" and "contact the decision maker", is associated with people who are used to having a great deal more power and influence than somebody hired to be a data entry grunt. The mindset may be useful for climbing out of the data entry grunt "class", but probably not for "fixing" his existing employer's practices. Someone on that level in a company of any substantial size is going to be ignored, disciplined, or outright fired for rocking the boat.

patio11 15y ago
Part of leveling up from peon to not-quite-sure-but-definitely-not-peon was learning how to talk the part. (Funny sidenote: About ten years to the day ago, I put in a proposal at a particular megacorp to script up something rather than spending $15,000 having the seasonal data entry clerks give themselves carpal tunnel syndrome doing it manually. It was not accepted, and my hands hurt like the dickens for most of the summer.)
- lupatus 15y ago
  I started wearing a suit and giving screwed-up smiles for answers like the Jim Halpert character on The Office (American version). Everyone at the office thought I was the best thing since sliced bread. * * * It didn't hurt that I accomplished more work than everyone else while socializing more (meaning I went to the office parties/brunches and laughed at the appropriate times).

hkmurakami 15y ago

Here is an anecdote: A similar data-entry grunt creates a set of excel macros on his private time at home, then presents his work to his team at a meeting. He surely expected to be met with praise, for saving countless hours of mind-numbing work so that the man-hours could be used on more creative and challenging tasks. His high hopes for his fellow coworkers and his own future would be dashed though. The employee was branded as a "hacker" (in the Hollywood movie sense), and was ostracized. He eventually developed clinical depression, and resigned from the company. Where did this happen? The story is probably not unfamiliar to patio11, who lives in the country where this occurred: Japan. P.S.: I wish I had been a Hacker News reader back when I lived in Nagoya from 2009-2010. It would have been nice to talk to you in person :).

wheaties 15y ago
Happened in America too. Boss took the "hacker" to the side and said "Look, I'd have to fire my entire staff if the higher ups learned of this and then I'd be out of a job too." Ah, nothing like firing the guy who could save your company tons of money just in self-interest.
- 3143 15y ago
  What was stopping the guy from skipping his boss and talking to the higher-ups himself? He could probably prove his boss right by taking his boss' job.
  - kamaal 15y ago
    In most organizations, Management layers aren't layers. They are actually clubs that protect each others interests. This goes on until the system gather enough dust to cause it to collapse. Its futile to complain to a manager about another manager in general. Those people know each other, and they will never side with you. All that politics will only back fire on you.
    - Confusion 15y ago
      Edit: I now realize you are talking about your experience in India, where of course things may be different. However, I would think that even there, 'managers' are a distinct subgroup from other human beings. Original: That's an unnecessarily negative view. Managers are people too and come in all the variations people come. Some of them care about whether the company does well, just like people whose title doesn't contain the word 'manager'. Their relation with other managers is exactly like the relation of your manager with you. That someones title includes the word 'manager' doesn't mean they suddenly like all other people whose title includes the word 'manager' and it doesn't mean he suddenly considers them equals. Being a 'manager' is not a binary thing. Team leaders are managers, even when their title doesn't say so.

redthrowaway 15y ago

>You don't have to Flowers for Algernon your own productivity Are you thinking of Harrison Bergeron?

patio11 15y ago
I was indeed! Curses, my memory of middle school is failing me.
- redthrowaway 15y ago
  No worries. I often make the same mistake, to the point where I knew what you were referring to but had to break out the googles because I wasn't sure if it was the right story. Both are excellent, btw.

jacalata 15y ago

I didn't take away anything like that from that sentence. I felt that he was saying "the pie is not fixed, and when your company realises that they can get the same results with a much smaller pie, most of your co-workers will be fired, possibly yourself along with them, and replaced with the script you wrote. Prepare to find another pie."

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]