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Texas has so many issues with its grid due to deregulation that people die when it’s colder or hotter than usual there. Not a great example of the free market w

by ok_dad 3y ago

Texas has so many issues with its grid due to deregulation that people die when it’s colder or hotter than usual there. Not a great example of the free market working out well for them.

cal5k 3y ago
Outside of unusually severe weather in 2022 and a subsequent outage, what is your evidence for this claim? I've been living in Texas since 2022 and the grid has anecdotally been just as reliable as anywhere else I've lived. Unusually crazy winter weather knocks out grids all over - back in '98 the ice storm in the Northeast US & Canada knocked out power for millions of people for up to 2 weeks in some cases.
- ok_dad 3y ago
  They’ve had major issues with weather preparedness even in the aftermath of those major events, where the grid nearly went black. Even the northeast outages I’ve recalled from my life haven’t gotten to the point that they were talking about the grid going black if things didn’t go well, but either way, these extreme weather events will only increase in the future.
  - cal5k 3y ago
    What do you mean "going black"? That's not a technical term any grid operator uses. They have various conservation strategies to manage peak demand if it exceeds capacity, like asking for voluntary conservation and/or rolling blackouts in extreme cases, but every grid operator does contingency planning like this. The Texas grid handled historic demand levels over the summer just fine.
    - ok_dad 3y ago
      Generally blackouts are controlled somewhat and can be caused by protective circuits to ensure generators stay online when the load becomes too great for the generation. In Texas, the blackouts were so vast and the generation sources were absolutely not prepped for cold weather, so there were questions as to whether they would have enough generation on certain circuits to bring the grid online in days rather than the horrible scenario of a black start for large swaths of the Texas grid, which could have taken weeks or months. Going black is the term I’ve heard used in my industry circles for the grid requiring a black start.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  If your question starts out by disqualifying answers, you might be approaching confirmation bias. That week or two of failures, even if it was the only one ever, is enough to prove the claim.
declan_roberts 3y ago
California’s highly regulated energy industry doesn’t seem like much better alternative?
- ok_dad 3y ago
  Why Texas vs California? Both are examples of corporate capture of regulators with unreliable and dangerous grids as a result. California has fires due to it, Texas gets outages, they both suck. It’s not fucking red v blue in here.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  I mean there's 50 states and a handful of territories if we're sticking to the US. If you don't like how Texas or California does things there's still plenty of options to choose from. But yeah, California has problems because it's regulators get stingy. If you control how much maintenance a company can do and cut back how much it should do then don't be surprised when things are poorly maintained. > When PG&E suggested inspecting 300,000 poles a year to ensure safety in 2012, CPUC cut the total to 235,000.¹¹ In 2011 and 2012, when PG&E spent almost $100 million more on replacing poles than allowed by CPUC, the regulator took that as a reason to deny future claims for pole replacement spending. It said “PG&E demonstrated the capacity and willingness to spend more than previously authorized…to meet service obligations,” thus they would not include extra required pole replacements in the “rate base.” These sorts of decisions created exactly the wrong incentives, penalizing PG&E for doing more than was required.¹² https://ciceroinstitute.org/pge-failing-california/ https://ciceroinstitute.org/pge-failing-california/
- sillystuff 3y ago
  California was the leader in deregulation of their electric utilities. AB1890 was passed in 1996 deregulating California's electricity sector. The '90s deregulation directly led to an 800% increase in wholesale electricity prices in 2000, and rolling blackouts for customers of investor owned utilities like SDGE (San Diego) and PGE (Central/Northern California). The government owned utilities, like LADWP (serving the Los Angeles area) did not need to resort to rolling blackouts (zero blackouts), and currently have much lower rates* while being fully sustained by the rate payers (not having the parasitic "investors" demanding greater profits allows for proper long-term planning and significantly lower prices for the rate payers). * Average $0.26/kWh LADWP. Average $0.45/kWh PGE
infecto 3y ago
Let’s not totally make up news. The extreme cold event did happen, 246 people died, obviously failings on getting facilities prepared for an extreme winter event, how parts of the grid were shut down and ultimately the limited interconnects with the other national grids. I don’t believe there are prime examples for people dead from the heat because of their grid.
- adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
  https://fortune.com/2023/09/07/texas-deregulated-power-grid-keeps-failing-first-during-2021s-historic-blizzard-and-now-during-2023s-historic-heat-wave/ https://fortune.com/2023/09/07/texas-deregulated-power-grid-... just this last summer the grid came cost to failing. it hasn't yet killed anyone due to cold, but every year is a roll of the dice and peak temperatures are increasing pretty much every year.
  - infecto 3y ago
    Correct but as I said originally. The only deaths were during the major winter storm. I appreciate facts not made up narratives like the GP.

by ok_dad 3y ago

Texas has so many issues with its grid due to deregulation that people die when it’s colder or hotter than usual there. Not a great example of the free market working out well for them.

cal5k 3y ago

Outside of unusually severe weather in 2022 and a subsequent outage, what is your evidence for this claim? I've been living in Texas since 2022 and the grid has anecdotally been just as reliable as anywhere else I've lived. Unusually crazy winter weather knocks out grids all over - back in '98 the ice storm in the Northeast US & Canada knocked out power for millions of people for up to 2 weeks in some cases.

ok_dad 3y ago
They’ve had major issues with weather preparedness even in the aftermath of those major events, where the grid nearly went black. Even the northeast outages I’ve recalled from my life haven’t gotten to the point that they were talking about the grid going black if things didn’t go well, but either way, these extreme weather events will only increase in the future.
- cal5k 3y ago
  What do you mean "going black"? That's not a technical term any grid operator uses. They have various conservation strategies to manage peak demand if it exceeds capacity, like asking for voluntary conservation and/or rolling blackouts in extreme cases, but every grid operator does contingency planning like this. The Texas grid handled historic demand levels over the summer just fine.
  - ok_dad 3y ago
    Generally blackouts are controlled somewhat and can be caused by protective circuits to ensure generators stay online when the load becomes too great for the generation. In Texas, the blackouts were so vast and the generation sources were absolutely not prepped for cold weather, so there were questions as to whether they would have enough generation on certain circuits to bring the grid online in days rather than the horrible scenario of a black start for large swaths of the Texas grid, which could have taken weeks or months. Going black is the term I’ve heard used in my industry circles for the grid requiring a black start.
ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
If your question starts out by disqualifying answers, you might be approaching confirmation bias. That week or two of failures, even if it was the only one ever, is enough to prove the claim.

declan_roberts 3y ago

California’s highly regulated energy industry doesn’t seem like much better alternative?

ok_dad 3y ago
Why Texas vs California? Both are examples of corporate capture of regulators with unreliable and dangerous grids as a result. California has fires due to it, Texas gets outages, they both suck. It’s not fucking red v blue in here.
lesuorac 3y ago
I mean there's 50 states and a handful of territories if we're sticking to the US. If you don't like how Texas or California does things there's still plenty of options to choose from. But yeah, California has problems because it's regulators get stingy. If you control how much maintenance a company can do and cut back how much it should do then don't be surprised when things are poorly maintained. > When PG&E suggested inspecting 300,000 poles a year to ensure safety in 2012, CPUC cut the total to 235,000.¹¹ In 2011 and 2012, when PG&E spent almost $100 million more on replacing poles than allowed by CPUC, the regulator took that as a reason to deny future claims for pole replacement spending. It said “PG&E demonstrated the capacity and willingness to spend more than previously authorized…to meet service obligations,” thus they would not include extra required pole replacements in the “rate base.” These sorts of decisions created exactly the wrong incentives, penalizing PG&E for doing more than was required.¹² https://ciceroinstitute.org/pge-failing-california/ https://ciceroinstitute.org/pge-failing-california/
sillystuff 3y ago
California was the leader in deregulation of their electric utilities. AB1890 was passed in 1996 deregulating California's electricity sector. The '90s deregulation directly led to an 800% increase in wholesale electricity prices in 2000, and rolling blackouts for customers of investor owned utilities like SDGE (San Diego) and PGE (Central/Northern California). The government owned utilities, like LADWP (serving the Los Angeles area) did not need to resort to rolling blackouts (zero blackouts), and currently have much lower rates* while being fully sustained by the rate payers (not having the parasitic "investors" demanding greater profits allows for proper long-term planning and significantly lower prices for the rate payers). * Average $0.26/kWh LADWP. Average $0.45/kWh PGE

infecto 3y ago

Let’s not totally make up news. The extreme cold event did happen, 246 people died, obviously failings on getting facilities prepared for an extreme winter event, how parts of the grid were shut down and ultimately the limited interconnects with the other national grids. I don’t believe there are prime examples for people dead from the heat because of their grid.

adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
https://fortune.com/2023/09/07/texas-deregulated-power-grid-keeps-failing-first-during-2021s-historic-blizzard-and-now-during-2023s-historic-heat-wave/ https://fortune.com/2023/09/07/texas-deregulated-power-grid-... just this last summer the grid came cost to failing. it hasn't yet killed anyone due to cold, but every year is a roll of the dice and peak temperatures are increasing pretty much every year.
- infecto 3y ago
  Correct but as I said originally. The only deaths were during the major winter storm. I appreciate facts not made up narratives like the GP.