4 ms·

I wonder why we do not use some sort of labor as penalty for misdemeanor, instead of useless incarceration. You caused $XXX of damage and you have no funds to

I wonder why we do not use some sort of labor as penalty for misdemeanor, instead of useless incarceration. You caused $XXX of damage and you have no funds to cover it, you should work for the state until you pay back the sum.

strulovich 3y ago
There’s some variations of prisoners de facto working for below minimum wage, but that’s now what you meant. The biggest issue, if we ignore moral values and try to keep it a cold hearted calculation (which I don’t agree with), then you have one big problem: making prisoners a profitable business will encourage imprisoning more people. Economy responds to incentives, and this seems to me like a bad incentive.
- 9991 3y ago
  We’re already there with corrections labor unions lobbying against decriminalizing drugs.
el_benhameen 3y ago
Giving the state financial incentives to convict and imprison people has some pretty obvious possible second-order effects. You can see them all over the world, from the growth of for-profit prisons in the US to forced labor in Xinjiang. Once the state or a state-associated entity profits from convictions, they have all the reason in the world to increase the rate of convictions.
- radicaldreamer 3y ago
  Peeled garlic is almost an entirely prison labor driven industry in China and is exported all over the world
  - powerapple 3y ago
    Damn. I didn't know that. Chinese people will never buy peeled garlic. I once saw a machine to peel garlic, basically roll garlics in a container and the skins will come off automatically. I wonder if it can works out cheaper and kill this industry.
- infotainment 3y ago
  Yup, it's always the second order effects that will get you in these criminal justice discussions. The idea seems great until you think it fully through.
ksherlock 3y ago
If you combine the two ideas - incarceration and work -- you get prison farms, sometimes known as county farms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm
sitharus 3y ago
Bring back the workhouse? It's already a thing, and there are big issues with it https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-workers-low-wages-exploited https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-wo...) Prison labour is often heavily discounted and it undercuts non-incarcerated people who're looking for a job.
leplen 3y ago
The state of Mississippi ran Parchman Farm on this principle for decades, but as you might imagine it looked a lot like slavery. A lot of people suddenly got arrested for loitering come harvest time.
advisedwang 3y ago
The United States does have forced labor, although not a whole lot that isn't under a pretense of a optional program. Notably at Angola (https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/11/10/angola-prison-louisiana-slave-labor/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/11/10/angola-pri...) But even if you want more, what should the prision do if a prisioner refuses to participate in the forced labor? How do you force them. Violence and torture is the only ultimate way. That is what you are demanding.
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  Thank you for amplifying this.
- ReptileMan 3y ago
  > Violence and torture is the only ultimate way. Boredom will break them easier, even if it takes slightly longer.
rl3 3y ago
>I wonder why we do not use some sort of labor as penalty for misdemeanor, instead of useless incarceration. The title of the article is: Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program That might be a hint.
jojobas 3y ago
Outside moral implications, prison labour is always ineffective as hell. The world didn't move on from slavery on humanitarian grounds, slavery-free societies are just more efficient.
loeg 3y ago
We do have non-incarcerative punishment for misdemeanors in the form of community service.
powerapple 3y ago
I kinda agree with you, I think labour is good for prisoners. They were forced to be contained in a prison anyway. I think the solution is better managed prison, where prisons would work to cover the cost the prison, including food, electricity and so on. As long as it is not for profit. It is so hard to do though. Look at the non-profit organizations around us, many of them are corrupted as well.

strulovich 3y ago

There’s some variations of prisoners de facto working for below minimum wage, but that’s now what you meant. The biggest issue, if we ignore moral values and try to keep it a cold hearted calculation (which I don’t agree with), then you have one big problem: making prisoners a profitable business will encourage imprisoning more people. Economy responds to incentives, and this seems to me like a bad incentive.

9991 3y ago
We’re already there with corrections labor unions lobbying against decriminalizing drugs.

el_benhameen 3y ago

Giving the state financial incentives to convict and imprison people has some pretty obvious possible second-order effects. You can see them all over the world, from the growth of for-profit prisons in the US to forced labor in Xinjiang. Once the state or a state-associated entity profits from convictions, they have all the reason in the world to increase the rate of convictions.

radicaldreamer 3y ago
Peeled garlic is almost an entirely prison labor driven industry in China and is exported all over the world
- powerapple 3y ago
  Damn. I didn't know that. Chinese people will never buy peeled garlic. I once saw a machine to peel garlic, basically roll garlics in a container and the skins will come off automatically. I wonder if it can works out cheaper and kill this industry.
infotainment 3y ago
Yup, it's always the second order effects that will get you in these criminal justice discussions. The idea seems great until you think it fully through.

ksherlock 3y ago

If you combine the two ideas - incarceration and work -- you get prison farms, sometimes known as county farms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm

sitharus 3y ago

Bring back the workhouse? It's already a thing, and there are big issues with it https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-workers-low-wages-exploited https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-wo...) Prison labour is often heavily discounted and it undercuts non-incarcerated people who're looking for a job.

leplen 3y ago

The state of Mississippi ran Parchman Farm on this principle for decades, but as you might imagine it looked a lot like slavery. A lot of people suddenly got arrested for loitering come harvest time.

advisedwang 3y ago

The United States does have forced labor, although not a whole lot that isn't under a pretense of a optional program. Notably at Angola (https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/11/10/angola-prison-louisiana-slave-labor/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/11/10/angola-pri...) But even if you want more, what should the prision do if a prisioner refuses to participate in the forced labor? How do you force them. Violence and torture is the only ultimate way. That is what you are demanding.

selimthegrim 3y ago
Thank you for amplifying this.
ReptileMan 3y ago
> Violence and torture is the only ultimate way. Boredom will break them easier, even if it takes slightly longer.

rl3 3y ago

>I wonder why we do not use some sort of labor as penalty for misdemeanor, instead of useless incarceration. The title of the article is: Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program That might be a hint.

jojobas 3y ago

Outside moral implications, prison labour is always ineffective as hell. The world didn't move on from slavery on humanitarian grounds, slavery-free societies are just more efficient.

loeg 3y ago

We do have non-incarcerative punishment for misdemeanors in the form of community service.

powerapple 3y ago

I kinda agree with you, I think labour is good for prisoners. They were forced to be contained in a prison anyway. I think the solution is better managed prison, where prisons would work to cover the cost the prison, including food, electricity and so on. As long as it is not for profit. It is so hard to do though. Look at the non-profit organizations around us, many of them are corrupted as well.