4 ms·

Pleasure does not exist in the absence of pain. It’s the avoidance of pain that is the problem.

by CTDOCodebases 3y ago

Hit-squad-17 3y ago
Ok
huytersd 3y ago
4 years into my early retirement. It’s goddamn heaven. That saying is for mice.
cassepipe 3y ago
This is nonsense The main guideline of my thirty years on this earth has been to optimize for least pain and and I have been blessed with much more joy than I believe the average Joe experiences. I can assure you the curious mind, when unencumbered by crippling pain, will find in a lifetime's worth of enthusiasm for life.
- networkchad 3y ago
  [dead]
- CTDOCodebases 3y ago
  You said "..least pain..". Thats not an absense of pain.
  - lannisterstark 3y ago
    Minimizing pain is the basic point. You're essentially arguing on pedantic points. We know what they're trying to say.
    - zer00eyz 3y ago
      > Minimizing pain is the basic point. That is what YOU want. > We know what they're trying to say. The argument your making shows your missing the subtly of what the poster and Huxley are saying. If your house always smells like bacon, if all your drinks and food are sweet how quickly does thee joy from these things fade? A life, without contrast is one that only drives you to escalation in a single direction. At some point there would not be enough sugar in the world to indulge your sweet tooth. Huxley was a student of buddhism, he understood that this flowed in the other direction. Chasing the pretty girl, the idea of catching her, of you and her is pleasurable. If you fail in this task it is pain... Buddhism would have you remove desire to remove pain. This idea, this theme, is the focus of Huxley's works and is present to some extent in this essay (the pleasure from passive consumption is a net bad). Fixing the toilet isnt "fun". There is satisfaction in doing a "shitty" job, one that isnt had if you call the plumber.
      - cassepipe 3y ago
        Yes, fine, the more repeated the pleasure the lesser it is. Sure we need contrast, but the absence of pleasure does not have to be pain. Pain is a signal from your body telling you something is going awry. I don't think you to have to be in pain in order to enjoy a night with friends or a good movie. So yes pleasure does exist in the absence of pain and trying to avoid pain is a good idea. Now if you are talking about effort that's something else. Your body and mind are normally equipped for effort and will reward you according to the result of this effort. We can have nice things
        CTDOCodebases 3y ago
        > Sure we need contrast, but the absence of pleasure does not have to be pain. The contrast was the idea I was putting forward. Pain defines pleasure if that makes sense and visa versa. > Pain is a signal from your body telling you something is going awry. I would say it is a signal from the mind (emotions can be painful) but I agree with your general point. > Now if you are talking about effort that's something else. Your body and mind are normally equipped for effort and will reward you according to the result of this effort. Cue, craving, response, reward. Is the craving not painful? If the response requires an unanticipated level of effort is that not painful? Do you see how it isn't so much about avoiding pain and more about choosing what cues you respond to and understanding what pain is unavoidable and/or what pain you are willing to endure.
      - CTDOCodebases 3y ago
        Well put. Honestly though this is not the best crowd for discussing these ideas. There is something about programming that tends to draw in people with control issues. Perhaps it's the deterministic nature of computers.
reaperman 3y ago
Pleasure and pain are not different directions along the same vector. They are two entirely different vectors.
- CTDOCodebases 3y ago
  > Pleasure and pain are not different directions along the same vector. They are two entirely different vectors. Are you proposing that pleasure and pain are unrelated?
  - reaperman 3y ago
    This is a vapid question. If you have something to say, just say it.
    - zer00eyz 3y ago
      Wow. It's waking up to the smell of bacon, and then 20 minutes later your nose blind to it. It is putting sugar and salt in everything and then having to add more and more to get the punch of either. Libertines, and hedonists chasing ever growing excess because they have to to feel. It's the relief of an ice pack on a sore shoulder vs the cold of snow in your jacket. It's the spoiled rich kid who appreciates nothing because they have everything. There is no pleasure with out pain. There is no point, without a counter point. It is why addicts chase every increasing amounts of their addictions...
    - CTDOCodebases 3y ago
      Please enlighten me. I am interested in learning how the two vectors interact with each other if at all. Perhaps model the relationship with some equations.

Pleasure does not exist in the absence of pain. It’s the avoidance of pain that is the problem.

Hit-squad-17 3y ago

huytersd 3y ago

4 years into my early retirement. It’s goddamn heaven. That saying is for mice.

cassepipe 3y ago

This is nonsense The main guideline of my thirty years on this earth has been to optimize for least pain and and I have been blessed with much more joy than I believe the average Joe experiences. I can assure you the curious mind, when unencumbered by crippling pain, will find in a lifetime's worth of enthusiasm for life.

networkchad 3y ago
[dead]
CTDOCodebases 3y ago
You said "..least pain..". Thats not an absense of pain.
- lannisterstark 3y ago
  Minimizing pain is the basic point. You're essentially arguing on pedantic points. We know what they're trying to say.
  - zer00eyz 3y ago
    > Minimizing pain is the basic point. That is what YOU want. > We know what they're trying to say. The argument your making shows your missing the subtly of what the poster and Huxley are saying. If your house always smells like bacon, if all your drinks and food are sweet how quickly does thee joy from these things fade? A life, without contrast is one that only drives you to escalation in a single direction. At some point there would not be enough sugar in the world to indulge your sweet tooth. Huxley was a student of buddhism, he understood that this flowed in the other direction. Chasing the pretty girl, the idea of catching her, of you and her is pleasurable. If you fail in this task it is pain... Buddhism would have you remove desire to remove pain. This idea, this theme, is the focus of Huxley's works and is present to some extent in this essay (the pleasure from passive consumption is a net bad). Fixing the toilet isnt "fun". There is satisfaction in doing a "shitty" job, one that isnt had if you call the plumber.
    - cassepipe 3y ago
      Yes, fine, the more repeated the pleasure the lesser it is. Sure we need contrast, but the absence of pleasure does not have to be pain. Pain is a signal from your body telling you something is going awry. I don't think you to have to be in pain in order to enjoy a night with friends or a good movie. So yes pleasure does exist in the absence of pain and trying to avoid pain is a good idea. Now if you are talking about effort that's something else. Your body and mind are normally equipped for effort and will reward you according to the result of this effort. We can have nice things
      - CTDOCodebases 3y ago
        > Sure we need contrast, but the absence of pleasure does not have to be pain. The contrast was the idea I was putting forward. Pain defines pleasure if that makes sense and visa versa. > Pain is a signal from your body telling you something is going awry. I would say it is a signal from the mind (emotions can be painful) but I agree with your general point. > Now if you are talking about effort that's something else. Your body and mind are normally equipped for effort and will reward you according to the result of this effort. Cue, craving, response, reward. Is the craving not painful? If the response requires an unanticipated level of effort is that not painful? Do you see how it isn't so much about avoiding pain and more about choosing what cues you respond to and understanding what pain is unavoidable and/or what pain you are willing to endure.
    - CTDOCodebases 3y ago
      Well put. Honestly though this is not the best crowd for discussing these ideas. There is something about programming that tends to draw in people with control issues. Perhaps it's the deterministic nature of computers.

reaperman 3y ago

Pleasure and pain are not different directions along the same vector. They are two entirely different vectors.

CTDOCodebases 3y ago
> Pleasure and pain are not different directions along the same vector. They are two entirely different vectors. Are you proposing that pleasure and pain are unrelated?
- reaperman 3y ago
  This is a vapid question. If you have something to say, just say it.
  - zer00eyz 3y ago
    Wow. It's waking up to the smell of bacon, and then 20 minutes later your nose blind to it. It is putting sugar and salt in everything and then having to add more and more to get the punch of either. Libertines, and hedonists chasing ever growing excess because they have to to feel. It's the relief of an ice pack on a sore shoulder vs the cold of snow in your jacket. It's the spoiled rich kid who appreciates nothing because they have everything. There is no pleasure with out pain. There is no point, without a counter point. It is why addicts chase every increasing amounts of their addictions...
  - CTDOCodebases 3y ago
    Please enlighten me. I am interested in learning how the two vectors interact with each other if at all. Perhaps model the relationship with some equations.