4 ms·

Now when it's forced to go there, everybody is crying "how dare you!". Truly, damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is a gross (and bizarre) distortion o

Now when it's forced to go there, everybody is crying "how dare you!". Truly, damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is a gross (and bizarre) distortion of why people are taking issue with the current operation in Gaza, of course. In a nutshell: no, they are very obviously not simply taking issue with the IDF "being there" in some form in response to October 7.

smsm42 3y ago
They are taking issue with the actions necessary to eliminate Hamas. There's no way to eliminate Hamas by hugging it out and singing Kumbaya in a drum circle. It requires war. And not a war somewhere where there's no civilians and all targets nicely marked up, but a war in real Gaza. And even now, when Israel suffered unspeakable atrocities, there are constant calls for Israel to stop and let Hamas recover and regain their strength, and ultimately just stop and go back to what was before - Hamas is attacking, Israel is suffering, UNRWA is feeding Gaza and Hamas both. Imagine what would happen if Netanyahu started an action like this on October 6. The whole world would be sure that he's the next Hitler hellbent on committing genocide. He'd probably be declared international war criminal and Israel would be under sanctions in mere days. And everybody knew that. So Netanyahu instead did what the world demanded him to do - worked with Hamas. His mistake was (not only his personally of course, it was a widely shared delusion) that he believed it's really working and Hamas is slowly moving towards accepting Israel and becoming the real government of Gaza, and not just a terrorist group relying on UNRWA to perform essential government functions while they rob, murder and shoot rockets. But even if he weren't deluded, he's likely still have to cooperate with Hamas to some measure, because there weren't many realistic options otherwise. And that means, yes, that there would still be pictures of the boxes of money sent to Hamas, available for anybody to build their conspiracy theories on.
- khokhol 3y ago
  They are taking issue with the actions necessary to eliminate Hamas. It's not, as you seem to be insinuating, the very idea of there being some kind of military response to October 7 that they take issue with. Rather - they don't buy your contention that the current operation, the way it is being conducted, is necessary for (or even helpful towards) that goal. Or even for the safe return of the hostages. Meanwhile, by now they find themselves forced to acknowledge certain ulterior motives at play -- based on how the current operation has been conducted on the ground, all the rather abhorrent statements by government officials and public figures, all those batshit insane TikTok videos that the IDF's best and finest have proudly broadcast to the world, etc.
  - smsm42 3y ago
    That's the way of the hypocrite. While I don't object to the military action in theory, as an abstract concept, but as long as any actual military action happens in reality, I would object to it and demand an immediate cessation of it. So what's the point of not objecting in theory, if you object to any instance in practice? > they don't buy your contention that the current operation, the way it is being conducted, is necessary for (or even helpful towards) that goal. Destroying Hamas is not helpful for the goal of destroying Hamas? That's certainly a novel take. I wonder how do you imagine a military operation with the goal of destroying Hamas looking like. Is it, in your mind, being conducted by sending them a sternly formulated emails, expressing your grave concern? Do you realize that Hamas has - or, rather, by now "had" - over 30k soldiers (that we know of), 18 years to dig in and stockpile weapons, explosives, build miles-long tunnel system, establish command points in every hospital, school and mosque that exists in Gaza, and they couldn't care less about any "international law" or war crime statutes? A war with such type of an enemy is not going to look very pretty on your screen. Fortunately, it's also not the goal of it. > all those batshit insane TikTok videos that the IDF's best and finest have proudly broadcast to the world, etc. I have no idea what you're talking about (I don't use Tiktok, for starters, neither I recommend it to anybody else, and I would agree that any IDF soldier that uses it at the site of military action probably should get a stern talking-to by the unit commander, but of course it's inevitable since the soldiers are people, sometimes - very young people, and would occasionally do things that aren't in the best judgement). But whatever "batshit" things you've seen on Tiktok, I don't see how it's relevant to anything. > Meanwhile, by now they find themselves forced to acknowledge certain ulterior motives at play Again, I have no idea what you mean - could you speak your point plainly?
    - khokhol 3y ago
      Destroying Hamas is not helpful for the goal of destroying Hamas? What's the point of not objecting in theory, if you object to any instance in practice? Unfortunately it appears that you're either grossly misreading what I'm saying, or (intentionally or otherwise) going through a lot of weird mental gymnastics to make it look like I'm saying things that I'm plainly not. So I'll have to bow out, and let you sort this stuff out on your own.

smsm42 3y ago

They are taking issue with the actions necessary to eliminate Hamas. There's no way to eliminate Hamas by hugging it out and singing Kumbaya in a drum circle. It requires war. And not a war somewhere where there's no civilians and all targets nicely marked up, but a war in real Gaza. And even now, when Israel suffered unspeakable atrocities, there are constant calls for Israel to stop and let Hamas recover and regain their strength, and ultimately just stop and go back to what was before - Hamas is attacking, Israel is suffering, UNRWA is feeding Gaza and Hamas both. Imagine what would happen if Netanyahu started an action like this on October 6. The whole world would be sure that he's the next Hitler hellbent on committing genocide. He'd probably be declared international war criminal and Israel would be under sanctions in mere days. And everybody knew that. So Netanyahu instead did what the world demanded him to do - worked with Hamas. His mistake was (not only his personally of course, it was a widely shared delusion) that he believed it's really working and Hamas is slowly moving towards accepting Israel and becoming the real government of Gaza, and not just a terrorist group relying on UNRWA to perform essential government functions while they rob, murder and shoot rockets. But even if he weren't deluded, he's likely still have to cooperate with Hamas to some measure, because there weren't many realistic options otherwise. And that means, yes, that there would still be pictures of the boxes of money sent to Hamas, available for anybody to build their conspiracy theories on.

khokhol 3y ago
They are taking issue with the actions necessary to eliminate Hamas. It's not, as you seem to be insinuating, the very idea of there being some kind of military response to October 7 that they take issue with. Rather - they don't buy your contention that the current operation, the way it is being conducted, is necessary for (or even helpful towards) that goal. Or even for the safe return of the hostages. Meanwhile, by now they find themselves forced to acknowledge certain ulterior motives at play -- based on how the current operation has been conducted on the ground, all the rather abhorrent statements by government officials and public figures, all those batshit insane TikTok videos that the IDF's best and finest have proudly broadcast to the world, etc.
- smsm42 3y ago
  That's the way of the hypocrite. While I don't object to the military action in theory, as an abstract concept, but as long as any actual military action happens in reality, I would object to it and demand an immediate cessation of it. So what's the point of not objecting in theory, if you object to any instance in practice? > they don't buy your contention that the current operation, the way it is being conducted, is necessary for (or even helpful towards) that goal. Destroying Hamas is not helpful for the goal of destroying Hamas? That's certainly a novel take. I wonder how do you imagine a military operation with the goal of destroying Hamas looking like. Is it, in your mind, being conducted by sending them a sternly formulated emails, expressing your grave concern? Do you realize that Hamas has - or, rather, by now "had" - over 30k soldiers (that we know of), 18 years to dig in and stockpile weapons, explosives, build miles-long tunnel system, establish command points in every hospital, school and mosque that exists in Gaza, and they couldn't care less about any "international law" or war crime statutes? A war with such type of an enemy is not going to look very pretty on your screen. Fortunately, it's also not the goal of it. > all those batshit insane TikTok videos that the IDF's best and finest have proudly broadcast to the world, etc. I have no idea what you're talking about (I don't use Tiktok, for starters, neither I recommend it to anybody else, and I would agree that any IDF soldier that uses it at the site of military action probably should get a stern talking-to by the unit commander, but of course it's inevitable since the soldiers are people, sometimes - very young people, and would occasionally do things that aren't in the best judgement). But whatever "batshit" things you've seen on Tiktok, I don't see how it's relevant to anything. > Meanwhile, by now they find themselves forced to acknowledge certain ulterior motives at play Again, I have no idea what you mean - could you speak your point plainly?
  - khokhol 3y ago
    Destroying Hamas is not helpful for the goal of destroying Hamas? What's the point of not objecting in theory, if you object to any instance in practice? Unfortunately it appears that you're either grossly misreading what I'm saying, or (intentionally or otherwise) going through a lot of weird mental gymnastics to make it look like I'm saying things that I'm plainly not. So I'll have to bow out, and let you sort this stuff out on your own.