8 ms·

Meta Staff Found Instagram Tool Enabled Child Exploitation. They Did It Anyway

66 points by lemming 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
toomuchtodo 3y ago
https://archive.today/jhNnj https://archive.today/jhNnj
DoreenMichele 3y ago
...tools on Facebook and Instagram were being misused by adults seeking to profit from exploiting their own children...The content, often featuring young girls in bikinis and leotards, was sold to an audience that was overwhelmingly male and often overt about sexual interest in the children in comments... So basically we exploit children for sex in a world that is so uptight that sex work by adults is still controversial and not legal in many places. We have a world of adults so uptight about their own sexuality that victimizing the most defenseless among us is preferable to dealing with adults meeting their needs with other adults and sorting out questions of how to do that in a world where we no longer automatically know some small group well from which to bond with someone and marry them and etc and are still sorting out how to find a mate for life in this big wide world. Corporations and parents and assorted others are all doing this. This doesn't mean Meta is off the hook for this but this is occurring in a larger context where we routinely just don't want to know kids are abused it seems.
- raoulkent 3y ago
  Arguing that pedophiles would not be problematic if there was legalisation of sec work is an absurd notion.
  - DoreenMichele 3y ago
    I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that the world is hella uptight and it drives both things, not that one would fix the other. But I do think if adults felt they could just pay for sex to meet their needs like you pay for a hamburger at Burger King because you are hungry and that didn't have to be illegal or surreptitious, you would have a world where these conversations were easier to have and people would be more likely to hash them out in earnest. These failings most likely start with everyone in the room not wanting to really have that conversation. Because sex is such an uncomfortable topic of discussion generally that a tough topic like child exploitation becomes effectively "unspeakable" for many people.
    - washadjeffmad 3y ago
      It has turned the spectre of abuse into a boogeyman, ripe for political misuse. It becomes not just passable, but preferable to allow any legislator who cites it as their intent to have what they want rather than potentially open discussion on such a "sensitive topic". What would the newspapers print? And without a third party to properly mock them, they can stay forever locked in their intensely serious and twisted dance of feeding the beast and shoveling its shit.
    - jgord 3y ago
      yeah, sex-related issues are about as easy to discuss as religion, and often tightly coupled / dictated by religion. Now, politics and climate change seem to have also become religious topics - you cant discuss them without calling into question ones core identity, it seems. Not sure how to get around this .. maybe the Street Epistemology approach, of essentially asking someone why they believe what they believe - examining ones beliefs without judgement. It seems very infrequent that people change their beliefs based on facts - yet its a core tenet of science.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - dijit 3y ago
    they didn’t argue that, they argued that if you’re not able to even talk about a problem you tend to smother it or not give it nuance which can lead to folks trying to kill any consensual sexual stuff, which not only consumes huge resources, but also leads to the situation where everyone is aware of how to skirt the rules meaning it is no longer esoteric knowledge. Same reasoning is often applied to weed… it’s not a gateway drug, it’s not not that bad of a drug, but the way it’s treated leads you to being criminalized for trying it so you don’t seek support, and you suddenly have contact with a dealer that can get more things and will push you to try it all.
    - Zetobal 3y ago
      No, fucking little kids is not in the same ballpark as smoking weed.
      - dijit 3y ago
        Excuse you sir, even the least charitable interpretation of what I said (which was an allegory) was not in any way inferring what you imply. If anything, the allegory would be: consensual sexual images between adults is equivalent to smoking weed.
        Zetobal 3y ago
        [flagged]
        dijit 3y ago
        Honestly, I haven't read that playbook. However, here's an interesting wake-up call: You seem to be exactly the person that the grandparent is talking about. Perfect is the enemy of good, the best result is nobody fucking children, permitting consenting adults to share nudes can help prevent that. Absolutists cause a worse situation for the most vulnerable among us.
      - alphabettsy 3y ago
        I think you’re proving the point. They never remotely suggested it was, the context is discussions about sex work not child sexual abuse. People like you can’t even read a very coherent analogy about sex work without getting emotional.
- krisoft 3y ago
  > we routinely just don't want to know kids are abused it seems Did you conclude that from the fact that there is a Wall Street Journal describing said corrupt practice? This is a scandal. I hope people will go to prison (parents and costumers alike if what is described is true.) I hope Facebook develops better tools to prevent this from happening. If not I want people from Facebook to also go to prison. Is this how “we routinely just don’t want to know” look like in your book?
  - DoreenMichele 3y ago
    Yes, in my book, this should not have happened. If people were honest about how common child exploitation is and really cared about it, it shouldn't have gotten to "and now there is an article about a scandal on the front page of HN about how far this went before anyone cared."
    - krisoft 3y ago
      > this should not have happened We agree on that. > If people were honest about how common child exploitation is I don’t know what “being honest” means. Do you think that there are masses who know about such exploitation and remain silent? If so please bring it to the attention of authorities. > it shouldn't have gotten to It shouldn’t. Someone responsible at facebook should have said “damn, this is very bad. We are shutting this down now, and reporting everyone to the authorities” > how far this went before anyone cared Caring presuposes that one knows about something. The fact that it is a scandal once it become known means that people care.
      - DoreenMichele 3y ago
        I think odds are good that someone in the room was a child molester and didn't want people to ask the hard questions. And until it is okay for adults to have substantive discussions about such things without it being part of an attempt to get laid, people with dirty secrets who want tools to enable their crimes will have more say in "let's just gloss over this detail" than people who want something else.
- iwontberude 3y ago
  We need another summer of love but one which is wiser. Something to defuse the incels which have invaded political life. I’m tired of our congress doing nothing because people don’t know how to fuck. Seems unrelated on the surface, but it’s not. So much of people’s acting out is based in sexual repression and lack of satisfaction sexually. Am I projecting? Sure as hell, but I’m not alone! (Hi asexuals, I am only talking about the sexually interested people, not erasing you <3)
javajosh 3y ago
The title alone is problematic. Do not auto-makers enable kidnapping and robbery? Do not camera-makers enable child exploitation? Tools don't have morality - people do. Consider that the same argument is routinely used to criticize, for example, secure chat services like Signal. If you really want to protect children, just put a smart-collar on every child that records every interaction they have, and put it online for the public to review and flag things they find immoral. This will work flawlessly because everyone has the same moral judgement and interprets evidence the same way /s. My tinfoil hat wonders if Meta itself is the source of this reporting. Weak attacks, like this one, help them with the strong attacks, like the fact that their product systematically harms the mental-health of young people especially. It's a bit like if RJ Reynolds funded a hit-piece on themselves that accused them of making cigarettes that can be used to burn others. Defending against that attack primes people to defend RJ Reynolds, which would help with the more serious, and justified, attack that they profit from addiction and lung cancer.
- simmerup 3y ago
  Instagram houses a community that Meta has a duty of care to. It’s not just a tool.
- jddj 3y ago
  "we promote accounts of exploited children to internally- and algorithmically- suspected pedophiles" doesn't strike me as an article they'd pay to have written.
defrost 3y ago
Related discussion: *Marketplace of Girl Influencers Managed by Moms, Stalked by Men# (nytimes.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39476721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39476721
- DoreenMichele 3y ago
  There's another on an article from The Verge: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39505113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39505113
surgical_fire 3y ago
But the ad revenue makes line go up.
- inference-lord 3y ago
  Meta makes so much money and has so much influence, no one is really going to do much bout it.
stefantalpalaru 3y ago
[dead]
licheness 3y ago
See also "Google & Meta function as extensions of the US Intelligence Community."[1][2] [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39505122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39505122 [2]https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1761567080988676256.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1761567080988676256.html
- kart23 3y ago
  If they don't police 'misinfo', they're accused of helping russia manipulate the election and helping trump get elected. If they do, they get accused of censoring speech and aiding the CIA/FBI. These peoples arguments don't make much of a point other than, look at this person who previously worked for the government and is now influencing free-speech related decisions at big tech!!! https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1685797053413126145.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1685797053413126145.html
lijok 3y ago
But you have to understand. It’s not that simple, we can’t just…
1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=4562913498059604&w=5kswekQFrpca-UqqC5oymxHU8-rhtAGZ https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=4562913498059604&w=5kswekQ... Alternatively, for text-only, simple HTML: cat > 1.sh;chmod +x 1.sh #!/bin/sh read x; x=${x##*-}; exec curl -si40A "" https://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/$x \ |grep -Eo "\"body\":\".+\"readTimeMin\"" \ |(echo "<meta charset=utf-8>";sed 's/\"body\":\"//;s/\",\"readTimeMin\"//') ^D echo https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/a-recipe-for-disaster-insiders-warned-meta-s-privacy-push-would-shield-child-predators/ar-AA1lTvjW \ |1.sh > 1.htm firefox ./1.htm links 1.htm links -dump 1.htm

66 points by lemming 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

toomuchtodo 3y ago

https://archive.today/jhNnj https://archive.today/jhNnj

DoreenMichele 3y ago

...tools on Facebook and Instagram were being misused by adults seeking to profit from exploiting their own children...The content, often featuring young girls in bikinis and leotards, was sold to an audience that was overwhelmingly male and often overt about sexual interest in the children in comments... So basically we exploit children for sex in a world that is so uptight that sex work by adults is still controversial and not legal in many places. We have a world of adults so uptight about their own sexuality that victimizing the most defenseless among us is preferable to dealing with adults meeting their needs with other adults and sorting out questions of how to do that in a world where we no longer automatically know some small group well from which to bond with someone and marry them and etc and are still sorting out how to find a mate for life in this big wide world. Corporations and parents and assorted others are all doing this. This doesn't mean Meta is off the hook for this but this is occurring in a larger context where we routinely just don't want to know kids are abused it seems.

raoulkent 3y ago
Arguing that pedophiles would not be problematic if there was legalisation of sec work is an absurd notion.
- DoreenMichele 3y ago
  I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that the world is hella uptight and it drives both things, not that one would fix the other. But I do think if adults felt they could just pay for sex to meet their needs like you pay for a hamburger at Burger King because you are hungry and that didn't have to be illegal or surreptitious, you would have a world where these conversations were easier to have and people would be more likely to hash them out in earnest. These failings most likely start with everyone in the room not wanting to really have that conversation. Because sex is such an uncomfortable topic of discussion generally that a tough topic like child exploitation becomes effectively "unspeakable" for many people.
  - washadjeffmad 3y ago
    It has turned the spectre of abuse into a boogeyman, ripe for political misuse. It becomes not just passable, but preferable to allow any legislator who cites it as their intent to have what they want rather than potentially open discussion on such a "sensitive topic". What would the newspapers print? And without a third party to properly mock them, they can stay forever locked in their intensely serious and twisted dance of feeding the beast and shoveling its shit.
  - jgord 3y ago
    yeah, sex-related issues are about as easy to discuss as religion, and often tightly coupled / dictated by religion. Now, politics and climate change seem to have also become religious topics - you cant discuss them without calling into question ones core identity, it seems. Not sure how to get around this .. maybe the Street Epistemology approach, of essentially asking someone why they believe what they believe - examining ones beliefs without judgement. It seems very infrequent that people change their beliefs based on facts - yet its a core tenet of science.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- dijit 3y ago
  they didn’t argue that, they argued that if you’re not able to even talk about a problem you tend to smother it or not give it nuance which can lead to folks trying to kill any consensual sexual stuff, which not only consumes huge resources, but also leads to the situation where everyone is aware of how to skirt the rules meaning it is no longer esoteric knowledge. Same reasoning is often applied to weed… it’s not a gateway drug, it’s not not that bad of a drug, but the way it’s treated leads you to being criminalized for trying it so you don’t seek support, and you suddenly have contact with a dealer that can get more things and will push you to try it all.
  - Zetobal 3y ago
    No, fucking little kids is not in the same ballpark as smoking weed.
    - dijit 3y ago
      Excuse you sir, even the least charitable interpretation of what I said (which was an allegory) was not in any way inferring what you imply. If anything, the allegory would be: consensual sexual images between adults is equivalent to smoking weed.
      - Zetobal 3y ago
        [flagged]
        dijit 3y ago
        Honestly, I haven't read that playbook. However, here's an interesting wake-up call: You seem to be exactly the person that the grandparent is talking about. Perfect is the enemy of good, the best result is nobody fucking children, permitting consenting adults to share nudes can help prevent that. Absolutists cause a worse situation for the most vulnerable among us.
    - alphabettsy 3y ago
      I think you’re proving the point. They never remotely suggested it was, the context is discussions about sex work not child sexual abuse. People like you can’t even read a very coherent analogy about sex work without getting emotional.
krisoft 3y ago
> we routinely just don't want to know kids are abused it seems Did you conclude that from the fact that there is a Wall Street Journal describing said corrupt practice? This is a scandal. I hope people will go to prison (parents and costumers alike if what is described is true.) I hope Facebook develops better tools to prevent this from happening. If not I want people from Facebook to also go to prison. Is this how “we routinely just don’t want to know” look like in your book?
- DoreenMichele 3y ago
  Yes, in my book, this should not have happened. If people were honest about how common child exploitation is and really cared about it, it shouldn't have gotten to "and now there is an article about a scandal on the front page of HN about how far this went before anyone cared."
  - krisoft 3y ago
    > this should not have happened We agree on that. > If people were honest about how common child exploitation is I don’t know what “being honest” means. Do you think that there are masses who know about such exploitation and remain silent? If so please bring it to the attention of authorities. > it shouldn't have gotten to It shouldn’t. Someone responsible at facebook should have said “damn, this is very bad. We are shutting this down now, and reporting everyone to the authorities” > how far this went before anyone cared Caring presuposes that one knows about something. The fact that it is a scandal once it become known means that people care.
    - DoreenMichele 3y ago
      I think odds are good that someone in the room was a child molester and didn't want people to ask the hard questions. And until it is okay for adults to have substantive discussions about such things without it being part of an attempt to get laid, people with dirty secrets who want tools to enable their crimes will have more say in "let's just gloss over this detail" than people who want something else.
iwontberude 3y ago
We need another summer of love but one which is wiser. Something to defuse the incels which have invaded political life. I’m tired of our congress doing nothing because people don’t know how to fuck. Seems unrelated on the surface, but it’s not. So much of people’s acting out is based in sexual repression and lack of satisfaction sexually. Am I projecting? Sure as hell, but I’m not alone! (Hi asexuals, I am only talking about the sexually interested people, not erasing you <3)

javajosh 3y ago

The title alone is problematic. Do not auto-makers enable kidnapping and robbery? Do not camera-makers enable child exploitation? Tools don't have morality - people do. Consider that the same argument is routinely used to criticize, for example, secure chat services like Signal. If you really want to protect children, just put a smart-collar on every child that records every interaction they have, and put it online for the public to review and flag things they find immoral. This will work flawlessly because everyone has the same moral judgement and interprets evidence the same way /s. My tinfoil hat wonders if Meta itself is the source of this reporting. Weak attacks, like this one, help them with the strong attacks, like the fact that their product systematically harms the mental-health of young people especially. It's a bit like if RJ Reynolds funded a hit-piece on themselves that accused them of making cigarettes that can be used to burn others. Defending against that attack primes people to defend RJ Reynolds, which would help with the more serious, and justified, attack that they profit from addiction and lung cancer.

simmerup 3y ago
Instagram houses a community that Meta has a duty of care to. It’s not just a tool.
jddj 3y ago
"we promote accounts of exploited children to internally- and algorithmically- suspected pedophiles" doesn't strike me as an article they'd pay to have written.

defrost 3y ago

Related discussion: *Marketplace of Girl Influencers Managed by Moms, Stalked by Men# (nytimes.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39476721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39476721

DoreenMichele 3y ago
There's another on an article from The Verge: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39505113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39505113

surgical_fire 3y ago

But the ad revenue makes line go up.

inference-lord 3y ago
Meta makes so much money and has so much influence, no one is really going to do much bout it.

stefantalpalaru 3y ago

[dead]

licheness 3y ago

See also "Google & Meta function as extensions of the US Intelligence Community."[1][2] [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39505122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39505122 [2]https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1761567080988676256.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1761567080988676256.html

kart23 3y ago
If they don't police 'misinfo', they're accused of helping russia manipulate the election and helping trump get elected. If they do, they get accused of censoring speech and aiding the CIA/FBI. These peoples arguments don't make much of a point other than, look at this person who previously worked for the government and is now influencing free-speech related decisions at big tech!!! https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1685797053413126145.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1685797053413126145.html

lijok 3y ago

But you have to understand. It’s not that simple, we can’t just…

1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago

https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=4562913498059604&w=5kswekQFrpca-UqqC5oymxHU8-rhtAGZ https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=4562913498059604&w=5kswekQ... Alternatively, for text-only, simple HTML: cat > 1.sh;chmod +x 1.sh #!/bin/sh read x; x=${x##*-}; exec curl -si40A "" https://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/$x \ |grep -Eo "\"body\":\".+\"readTimeMin\"" \ |(echo "<meta charset=utf-8>";sed 's/\"body\":\"//;s/\",\"readTimeMin\"//') ^D echo https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/a-recipe-for-disaster-insiders-warned-meta-s-privacy-push-would-shield-child-predators/ar-AA1lTvjW \ |1.sh > 1.htm firefox ./1.htm links 1.htm links -dump 1.htm