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> The percentage of cobalt in modern lithium ion batteries (ie: tesla/panasonic's nmc-811 cells) is only 8% of the battery material Worth pointing out that wit

> The percentage of cobalt in modern lithium ion batteries (ie: tesla/panasonic's nmc-811 cells) is only 8% of the battery material Worth pointing out that with LFP batteries, it's actually zero percent. There are a few more cobalt free battery chemistries. But this is so far the most popular one with a rapidly growing market share that is closing in on 40% of the market. Lots of Teslas and other vehicles use them. There are a few more cobalt free battery chemistries of course. Sodium ion is getting some usage in China lately and does not involve cobalt, for example. And some of the solid state batteries don't use it either. Cobalt isn't actually controversial because it's rare but because the way some of it is mined in Congo (i.e. with children). Most of it is actually fine and mined in a more humane way. Using children is not a hard requirement. And as the article points out recycling it is pretty doable too. And it's not all that rare either. It's by no means a rare earth. And never mind about the other things children mine. Like copper, coal, diamonds, gold, etc. Or the fact that a lot of cobalt is also used in other industries. Like the oil refining industry, for example. Cobalt is somehow only controversial in the context of batteries. Any other form of cobalt usage is apparently not worth reporting on, scrutinizing, etc. A lot of crocodile tears get shed over the poor children in the Congo. But only when it concerns batteries for EVs. I wonder why that is (rhetorical question with some obvious answers, I know) and whether those people actually really care. Because they sure are being awfully selective with their outrage.

thebruce87m 3y ago
The people who care about cobalt being used for EVs don’t seem to mind when you point out it’s also used to refine petroleum. It was never about the cobalt.
- rbut 3y ago
  It would have been nice to provide a source to back up this argument. So I looked it up. 4% of global cobalt use is used by refineries. 62% of global cobalt use is for EVs, and growing. [1] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRymWWyTkr85Vng#0 https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRym... [2] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRymWWyTkr85Vng#2 https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRym...
  - SECProto 3y ago
    > So I looked it up. Note that the links you provided are not primary sources. They rely on this one tweet as the primary source. https://twitter.com/siddharthkara/status/1612587425087524864 https://twitter.com/siddharthkara/status/1612587425087524864
    - cogman10 3y ago
      Yeah, it was my impression the last time I looked into this that cobalt was a rather worthless element. Part of the reason for the terrible mining conditions isn't that cobalt is all that rare, but rather that it's not all that useful so you don't see a lot of need for industrial cobalt mining operations. Because of it's relative uselessness and worthlessness, cobalt mines were shutdown. It's only semi-recently that there's been talks of turning the lights back on. Like in this mine [1] [1] https://jervoisidahocobalt.com/ https://jervoisidahocobalt.com/
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    You’ve posted this like it’s some kind of “gotcha” but I’m failing to see why. (Most) People who complain about EV cobalt use don’t actually care about it, or they would have complained about other uses before EVs were a thing. Some people did genuinely care before, but we are really talking about the current anti-EV movement and their list of “Bingo” talking points. When you point out alternative battery chemistries that don’t use cobalt as a viable alternative to both NMC EVs and ICE vehicles, they move on to some other anti-EV talking point they’ve been taught. My point still stands. It was never about the cobalt.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      I didn't read it as a gotcha, but more of a reinforcing the point you made. Maybe the low 4% is being taken as "yeah but not really"? I know nothing about petroleum refining, so hearing cobalt was used was interesting to me, and then someone else provided more info.
Jimmc414 3y ago
>A lot of crocodile tears get shed over the poor children in the Congo. But only when it concerns batteries for EVs. I wonder why that is (rhetorical question with some obvious answers, I know) and whether those people actually really care. Because they sure are being awfully selective with their outrage. Seems a bit complex for an issue as simple as you can extract cobalt from spent batteries literally with human pee and white vinegar as a solvent.
- Turskarama 3y ago
  The point being made is that talking about the use of cobalt in batteries is actually beside the point. Unless we do something about child labor _in general_ then reducing cobalt use will just see those children being exploited in some other way. The focus on child labor for mining cobalt is 100% just an attack on BEVs, it was never about the children who were just being used in yet another way to achieve someone elses ends.
  - cogman10 3y ago
    Yup. You see this ALL THE TIME with anti-BEV articles. The arguments being made are in bad faith. It's not that the individual cares but rather they are looking to give BEVs a black eye. Another fun one is how whenever you talk about BEVs, there's all the sudden someone that lives in the arctic circle that has a 12 hour commute (Not hyperbole, I actually saw someone make this claim in an argument). It isn't good enough to say "Well then perhaps BEVs aren't for you" instead "The technology isn't there and nobody can use them". It's just astroturfing or people trying to win a culture war.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
      Hey now. The governments of the world are trying to mandate those so even bad faith arguments have to be addressed. You can't just say 'those are not for you then' anymore. Amusingly, EV folks seem to be telling ICE folks what to do. FWIW, waiting on sidelines for some of this stuff to mature ( oddly, I am not talking about range, but about the incessant subscription push.. that trend has to die ).
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
DinaCoder99 3y ago
> Cobalt isn't actually controversial because it's rare but because the way some of it is mined in Congo (i.e. with children). Most of it is actually fine and mined in a more humane way. 74% of the world's cobalt is extracted from the Democratic Republic of the Congo (not to be confused with the Republic of the Congo)[0]. Not to diminish the horrors of using children to mine, but that's hardly the only problem—this neglects the absolutely inhumane working conditions and violent conflict between dozens of armed groups vying for control of the mines, chief among them the state's military itself. The mad rush for cobalt has certainly exacerbated this conflict[1] and led to one of the world's worst humanitarian crises in modern times. Even if you were to somehow magically vanish the children from the mines it would still be one of the worst situations on earth to be born into. I don't appreciate this attempt to trivialize the cost of the west's voracious demand for the mineral and it's extremely difficult to imagine the above comment being made in good faith. [0]: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893... [1]: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/21/a-guide-to-the-decades-long-conflict-in-dr-congo https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/21/a-guide-to-the-deca...
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  I remember doing a school essay about this 20 years ago. How come this is still going on?

thebruce87m 3y ago

The people who care about cobalt being used for EVs don’t seem to mind when you point out it’s also used to refine petroleum. It was never about the cobalt.

rbut 3y ago
It would have been nice to provide a source to back up this argument. So I looked it up. 4% of global cobalt use is used by refineries. 62% of global cobalt use is for EVs, and growing. [1] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRymWWyTkr85Vng#0 https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRym... [2] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRymWWyTkr85Vng#2 https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRym...
- SECProto 3y ago
  > So I looked it up. Note that the links you provided are not primary sources. They rely on this one tweet as the primary source. https://twitter.com/siddharthkara/status/1612587425087524864 https://twitter.com/siddharthkara/status/1612587425087524864
  - cogman10 3y ago
    Yeah, it was my impression the last time I looked into this that cobalt was a rather worthless element. Part of the reason for the terrible mining conditions isn't that cobalt is all that rare, but rather that it's not all that useful so you don't see a lot of need for industrial cobalt mining operations. Because of it's relative uselessness and worthlessness, cobalt mines were shutdown. It's only semi-recently that there's been talks of turning the lights back on. Like in this mine [1] [1] https://jervoisidahocobalt.com/ https://jervoisidahocobalt.com/
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  You’ve posted this like it’s some kind of “gotcha” but I’m failing to see why. (Most) People who complain about EV cobalt use don’t actually care about it, or they would have complained about other uses before EVs were a thing. Some people did genuinely care before, but we are really talking about the current anti-EV movement and their list of “Bingo” talking points. When you point out alternative battery chemistries that don’t use cobalt as a viable alternative to both NMC EVs and ICE vehicles, they move on to some other anti-EV talking point they’ve been taught. My point still stands. It was never about the cobalt.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    I didn't read it as a gotcha, but more of a reinforcing the point you made. Maybe the low 4% is being taken as "yeah but not really"? I know nothing about petroleum refining, so hearing cobalt was used was interesting to me, and then someone else provided more info.

Jimmc414 3y ago

>A lot of crocodile tears get shed over the poor children in the Congo. But only when it concerns batteries for EVs. I wonder why that is (rhetorical question with some obvious answers, I know) and whether those people actually really care. Because they sure are being awfully selective with their outrage. Seems a bit complex for an issue as simple as you can extract cobalt from spent batteries literally with human pee and white vinegar as a solvent.

Turskarama 3y ago
The point being made is that talking about the use of cobalt in batteries is actually beside the point. Unless we do something about child labor _in general_ then reducing cobalt use will just see those children being exploited in some other way. The focus on child labor for mining cobalt is 100% just an attack on BEVs, it was never about the children who were just being used in yet another way to achieve someone elses ends.
- cogman10 3y ago
  Yup. You see this ALL THE TIME with anti-BEV articles. The arguments being made are in bad faith. It's not that the individual cares but rather they are looking to give BEVs a black eye. Another fun one is how whenever you talk about BEVs, there's all the sudden someone that lives in the arctic circle that has a 12 hour commute (Not hyperbole, I actually saw someone make this claim in an argument). It isn't good enough to say "Well then perhaps BEVs aren't for you" instead "The technology isn't there and nobody can use them". It's just astroturfing or people trying to win a culture war.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
    Hey now. The governments of the world are trying to mandate those so even bad faith arguments have to be addressed. You can't just say 'those are not for you then' anymore. Amusingly, EV folks seem to be telling ICE folks what to do. FWIW, waiting on sidelines for some of this stuff to mature ( oddly, I am not talking about range, but about the incessant subscription push.. that trend has to die ).

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

DinaCoder99 3y ago

> Cobalt isn't actually controversial because it's rare but because the way some of it is mined in Congo (i.e. with children). Most of it is actually fine and mined in a more humane way. 74% of the world's cobalt is extracted from the Democratic Republic of the Congo (not to be confused with the Republic of the Congo)[0]. Not to diminish the horrors of using children to mine, but that's hardly the only problem—this neglects the absolutely inhumane working conditions and violent conflict between dozens of armed groups vying for control of the mines, chief among them the state's military itself. The mad rush for cobalt has certainly exacerbated this conflict[1] and led to one of the world's worst humanitarian crises in modern times. Even if you were to somehow magically vanish the children from the mines it would still be one of the worst situations on earth to be born into. I don't appreciate this attempt to trivialize the cost of the west's voracious demand for the mineral and it's extremely difficult to imagine the above comment being made in good faith. [0]: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893... [1]: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/21/a-guide-to-the-decades-long-conflict-in-dr-congo https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/21/a-guide-to-the-deca...

TeMPOraL 3y ago
I remember doing a school essay about this 20 years ago. How come this is still going on?