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I don't really get the impression that current recycling techniques are lacking... typically the battery packs are immersion-shred and separated into the metal,

I don't really get the impression that current recycling techniques are lacking... typically the battery packs are immersion-shred and separated into the metal, plastic and the cathode "paste" which is a mix of lithium, mangagnese, nickel and cobalt. The recovery from there is pretty high - up to 95%. The percentage of cobalt in modern lithium ion batteries (ie: tesla/panasonic's nmc-811 cells) is only 8% of the battery material. It's almost entirely Nickel now (72%) with traces of manganese (8%) and cobalt (9%). Even the lithium percentage is down to ~11%. I was under the impression that the biggest issue right now was scaling up recycling facilities and recycling pathways back to those facilities so that they can handle the huge influx of batteries anticipated in the next 3-4 years. I don't think recovering 97% vs 95% of 8% of the material is going to change the economics of battery recyling. The more interesting breakthroughs seem to be low-temperature, safe-chemical extraction. Let's not forget the advancements in cell composition that will lead to longer lifespans (2-3x higher cycle counts) - which not only reduces the waste from battery packs but also that from devices that use them.

tooltalk 3y ago
>> The percentage of cobalt in modern lithium ion batteries (ie: tesla/panasonic's nmc-811 cells) << Tesla uses Panasonic's NCA-9 mostly for North America; LG's NCM811 for Europe/China. Recycling nickel-based batteries are already profitable[1]. [1] Financial viability of electric vehicle lithium-ion battery recyclingVolume 24, Issue 7, 23 July 2021, 102787, Journal home page for iScience
vinni2 3y ago
> I don't think recovering 97% vs 95% of 8% of the material is going to change the economics of battery recyling. Not yet but as more and more EVs reach end of life and these rare earth metals become rarer then it starts make a difference.
- pfdietz 3y ago
  Neither nickel nor cobalt are rare earth metals. They may be somewhat rare, and they come from the earth, but that's not what "rare earth" means.
  - tgtweak 3y ago
    at $28,000/MT it's rare enough to worry about - for context it looks like a model 3 has about 4.5KG of cobalt in it's entire pack, or around ~$130 at current spot rate.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - pfdietz 3y ago
      Totally irrelevant to the point I was making.
  - ajross 3y ago
    This is like arguing with an astronomer about what a "metal" is. The colloquial definition of "rare earth element" when talking about industry and not chemistry generally means anything you mine that isn't an already-concentrated ore.
    - malfist 3y ago
      What do you mean? Any element heavier than hydrogen is a metal, everyone knows this.
      - whycome 3y ago
        Sometimes hydrogen might be a metal…. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen
    - pfdietz 3y ago
      Q: How many legs does a dog have, if we call a tail a leg? A: Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one. One sometimes sees the nonsense you are describing there in attempts to smear PV as dirty because it "uses rare earth elements", with a pointer toward dirty REE processing in China. PV does not use the actual REEs; this smear exploits the terminological slovenliness being engaged in here. I don't believe any honest person in industry would use "rare earth element" to refer to nickel or cobalt.
keenmaster 3y ago
Don’t underestimate the elasticity of supply.
- piyh 3y ago
  We've been trying to figure out cobalt supply for a long time and the DRC is still 70% of the worlds supply https://www.cobaltinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/PDF-High-res_WorldMAP-p1-1.svg https://www.cobaltinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/P...
praseodym 3y ago
The price for cobalt is currently around 30 USD/kg but has been as high as 90 USD/kg: http://www.dailymetalprice.com/metalpricecharts.php?c=co&u=kg&d=0 http://www.dailymetalprice.com/metalpricecharts.php?c=co&u=k... I’m not very familiar with the ellconomics of recycling, but I doubt that this process to recover an additional 2% will be cost effective.
- tgtweak 3y ago
  I guess if you're a massive recycling facility and working on 30,000+MT of raw batteries as input, the 2% extra could equate to a fair amount, certainly when the spot price is $28,000/MT. Considering spot prices for cobalt are dropping quickly and are now back to pre-2019 levels... not sure it makes sense to invest heavily in this.
  - fbdab103 3y ago
    What happens with the slag from these operations? I assume it is easy enough to separate out the metals from plastics, all of the metal is still potentially available for reprocessing. Do they keep a huge deposit of these tailings hoping for it to be profitable some day?
    - Tagbert 3y ago
      Possibly. What happens to mine tailings and slag from other smelting operations? BTW referring to it as “huge deposits” is likely exaggerating. There are currently only a small number of battery packs that have failed to the point of being processed. Even with larger number of EVs, the number will climb slowly and will probably never be enough to produce huge slag deposits.
      - blitzar 3y ago
        > What happens to mine tailings and slag from other smelting operations? Dump it in the nearest river.
parineum 3y ago
> I don't think recovering 97% vs 95% of 8% of the material is going to change the economics of battery recyling. I think you're focusing on the wrong part of the headline. > ... with common chemicals. Seems much more important to the economics than, as you said, the slight uptick in recovery.
- NotSammyHagar 3y ago
  All of this progress is also good information to counter the endless claims that electric vehicles are destroying the world. There is an impact from all mining exercises and there are terrible conditions in some cobalt mines. Tesla apparently buys from only certified cobalt suppliers, for example. But every article that talks about improvements in efficiency in recycling and the continuing improvements help to set the record straight. We could reach almost steady state of battery materials eventually with more and better battery recycling. I wonder when that might be expected? 30 years for EVs to go through the car fleet and replace all other cars, then most battery materials can come from recycling? However there will likely be different minerals in new battery tech over time, will solid state batteries be as recyclable?
  - pompino 3y ago
    Improving public transportation is a far superior solution than forcing people to buy EV cars by outlawing gas engines. For the median income in the US, or person working minimum wage - all of this is pie-in-the-sky elite talk. EVs are essentially for rick folks to feel better about themselves.
    - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
      Class warfare aside, public transport will transition to EVs as well and there is a lot of promise in self driving vehicles smaller than a bus making public transport cheaper, more flexible, and more attractive. In the end people will buy EVs because they are cheaper and better. Governments are just trying to set goals and promote action against climate change.
tonetegeatinst 3y ago
This is what my understanding of EV battery recycling is at. It all gets shredded and then the separate the enclosure from the actual battery. Then they get a mixture of the annode and cathode + any electrolyte solution. My understanding is that the anode and cathode are separated into separate containers....and who knows what the electrolyte solution is doing....its probably stuck in both piles or burnt off
jillesvangurp 3y ago
> The percentage of cobalt in modern lithium ion batteries (ie: tesla/panasonic's nmc-811 cells) is only 8% of the battery material Worth pointing out that with LFP batteries, it's actually zero percent. There are a few more cobalt free battery chemistries. But this is so far the most popular one with a rapidly growing market share that is closing in on 40% of the market. Lots of Teslas and other vehicles use them. There are a few more cobalt free battery chemistries of course. Sodium ion is getting some usage in China lately and does not involve cobalt, for example. And some of the solid state batteries don't use it either. Cobalt isn't actually controversial because it's rare but because the way some of it is mined in Congo (i.e. with children). Most of it is actually fine and mined in a more humane way. Using children is not a hard requirement. And as the article points out recycling it is pretty doable too. And it's not all that rare either. It's by no means a rare earth. And never mind about the other things children mine. Like copper, coal, diamonds, gold, etc. Or the fact that a lot of cobalt is also used in other industries. Like the oil refining industry, for example. Cobalt is somehow only controversial in the context of batteries. Any other form of cobalt usage is apparently not worth reporting on, scrutinizing, etc. A lot of crocodile tears get shed over the poor children in the Congo. But only when it concerns batteries for EVs. I wonder why that is (rhetorical question with some obvious answers, I know) and whether those people actually really care. Because they sure are being awfully selective with their outrage.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  The people who care about cobalt being used for EVs don’t seem to mind when you point out it’s also used to refine petroleum. It was never about the cobalt.
  - rbut 3y ago
    It would have been nice to provide a source to back up this argument. So I looked it up. 4% of global cobalt use is used by refineries. 62% of global cobalt use is for EVs, and growing. [1] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRymWWyTkr85Vng#0 https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRym... [2] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRymWWyTkr85Vng#2 https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRym...
grecy 3y ago
> I don't really get the impression that current recycling techniques are lacking Big money is trying as hard as possible to convince people not to buy EVs, and "The batteries are not recyclable" is just another wonky arrow in their bent quiver of fear, uncertainty and doubt. In fact, there are huge EV battery recycling plants in the US, operating right now: https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/recycling-renewables/the-biggest-ev-battery-recycling-plant-in-the-us-is-open-for-business https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/recycling-renewables/th...

tooltalk 3y ago

>> The percentage of cobalt in modern lithium ion batteries (ie: tesla/panasonic's nmc-811 cells) << Tesla uses Panasonic's NCA-9 mostly for North America; LG's NCM811 for Europe/China. Recycling nickel-based batteries are already profitable[1]. [1] Financial viability of electric vehicle lithium-ion battery recyclingVolume 24, Issue 7, 23 July 2021, 102787, Journal home page for iScience

vinni2 3y ago

> I don't think recovering 97% vs 95% of 8% of the material is going to change the economics of battery recyling. Not yet but as more and more EVs reach end of life and these rare earth metals become rarer then it starts make a difference.

pfdietz 3y ago
Neither nickel nor cobalt are rare earth metals. They may be somewhat rare, and they come from the earth, but that's not what "rare earth" means.
- tgtweak 3y ago
  at $28,000/MT it's rare enough to worry about - for context it looks like a model 3 has about 4.5KG of cobalt in it's entire pack, or around ~$130 at current spot rate.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - pfdietz 3y ago
    Totally irrelevant to the point I was making.
- ajross 3y ago
  This is like arguing with an astronomer about what a "metal" is. The colloquial definition of "rare earth element" when talking about industry and not chemistry generally means anything you mine that isn't an already-concentrated ore.
  - malfist 3y ago
    What do you mean? Any element heavier than hydrogen is a metal, everyone knows this.
    - whycome 3y ago
      Sometimes hydrogen might be a metal…. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen
  - pfdietz 3y ago
    Q: How many legs does a dog have, if we call a tail a leg? A: Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one. One sometimes sees the nonsense you are describing there in attempts to smear PV as dirty because it "uses rare earth elements", with a pointer toward dirty REE processing in China. PV does not use the actual REEs; this smear exploits the terminological slovenliness being engaged in here. I don't believe any honest person in industry would use "rare earth element" to refer to nickel or cobalt.

keenmaster 3y ago

Don’t underestimate the elasticity of supply.

piyh 3y ago
We've been trying to figure out cobalt supply for a long time and the DRC is still 70% of the worlds supply https://www.cobaltinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/PDF-High-res_WorldMAP-p1-1.svg https://www.cobaltinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/P...

praseodym 3y ago

The price for cobalt is currently around 30 USD/kg but has been as high as 90 USD/kg: http://www.dailymetalprice.com/metalpricecharts.php?c=co&u=kg&d=0 http://www.dailymetalprice.com/metalpricecharts.php?c=co&u=k... I’m not very familiar with the ellconomics of recycling, but I doubt that this process to recover an additional 2% will be cost effective.

tgtweak 3y ago
I guess if you're a massive recycling facility and working on 30,000+MT of raw batteries as input, the 2% extra could equate to a fair amount, certainly when the spot price is $28,000/MT. Considering spot prices for cobalt are dropping quickly and are now back to pre-2019 levels... not sure it makes sense to invest heavily in this.
- fbdab103 3y ago
  What happens with the slag from these operations? I assume it is easy enough to separate out the metals from plastics, all of the metal is still potentially available for reprocessing. Do they keep a huge deposit of these tailings hoping for it to be profitable some day?
  - Tagbert 3y ago
    Possibly. What happens to mine tailings and slag from other smelting operations? BTW referring to it as “huge deposits” is likely exaggerating. There are currently only a small number of battery packs that have failed to the point of being processed. Even with larger number of EVs, the number will climb slowly and will probably never be enough to produce huge slag deposits.
    - blitzar 3y ago
      > What happens to mine tailings and slag from other smelting operations? Dump it in the nearest river.

parineum 3y ago

> I don't think recovering 97% vs 95% of 8% of the material is going to change the economics of battery recyling. I think you're focusing on the wrong part of the headline. > ... with common chemicals. Seems much more important to the economics than, as you said, the slight uptick in recovery.

NotSammyHagar 3y ago
All of this progress is also good information to counter the endless claims that electric vehicles are destroying the world. There is an impact from all mining exercises and there are terrible conditions in some cobalt mines. Tesla apparently buys from only certified cobalt suppliers, for example. But every article that talks about improvements in efficiency in recycling and the continuing improvements help to set the record straight. We could reach almost steady state of battery materials eventually with more and better battery recycling. I wonder when that might be expected? 30 years for EVs to go through the car fleet and replace all other cars, then most battery materials can come from recycling? However there will likely be different minerals in new battery tech over time, will solid state batteries be as recyclable?
- pompino 3y ago
  Improving public transportation is a far superior solution than forcing people to buy EV cars by outlawing gas engines. For the median income in the US, or person working minimum wage - all of this is pie-in-the-sky elite talk. EVs are essentially for rick folks to feel better about themselves.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    Class warfare aside, public transport will transition to EVs as well and there is a lot of promise in self driving vehicles smaller than a bus making public transport cheaper, more flexible, and more attractive. In the end people will buy EVs because they are cheaper and better. Governments are just trying to set goals and promote action against climate change.

tonetegeatinst 3y ago

This is what my understanding of EV battery recycling is at. It all gets shredded and then the separate the enclosure from the actual battery. Then they get a mixture of the annode and cathode + any electrolyte solution. My understanding is that the anode and cathode are separated into separate containers....and who knows what the electrolyte solution is doing....its probably stuck in both piles or burnt off

jillesvangurp 3y ago

> The percentage of cobalt in modern lithium ion batteries (ie: tesla/panasonic's nmc-811 cells) is only 8% of the battery material Worth pointing out that with LFP batteries, it's actually zero percent. There are a few more cobalt free battery chemistries. But this is so far the most popular one with a rapidly growing market share that is closing in on 40% of the market. Lots of Teslas and other vehicles use them. There are a few more cobalt free battery chemistries of course. Sodium ion is getting some usage in China lately and does not involve cobalt, for example. And some of the solid state batteries don't use it either. Cobalt isn't actually controversial because it's rare but because the way some of it is mined in Congo (i.e. with children). Most of it is actually fine and mined in a more humane way. Using children is not a hard requirement. And as the article points out recycling it is pretty doable too. And it's not all that rare either. It's by no means a rare earth. And never mind about the other things children mine. Like copper, coal, diamonds, gold, etc. Or the fact that a lot of cobalt is also used in other industries. Like the oil refining industry, for example. Cobalt is somehow only controversial in the context of batteries. Any other form of cobalt usage is apparently not worth reporting on, scrutinizing, etc. A lot of crocodile tears get shed over the poor children in the Congo. But only when it concerns batteries for EVs. I wonder why that is (rhetorical question with some obvious answers, I know) and whether those people actually really care. Because they sure are being awfully selective with their outrage.

thebruce87m 3y ago
The people who care about cobalt being used for EVs don’t seem to mind when you point out it’s also used to refine petroleum. It was never about the cobalt.
- rbut 3y ago
  It would have been nice to provide a source to back up this argument. So I looked it up. 4% of global cobalt use is used by refineries. 62% of global cobalt use is for EVs, and growing. [1] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRymWWyTkr85Vng#0 https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRym... [2] https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRymWWyTkr85Vng#2 https://www.perplexity.ai/search/How-much-cobalt-5scBTFEHRym...

grecy 3y ago

> I don't really get the impression that current recycling techniques are lacking Big money is trying as hard as possible to convince people not to buy EVs, and "The batteries are not recyclable" is just another wonky arrow in their bent quiver of fear, uncertainty and doubt. In fact, there are huge EV battery recycling plants in the US, operating right now: https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/recycling-renewables/the-biggest-ev-battery-recycling-plant-in-the-us-is-open-for-business https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/recycling-renewables/th...