4 ms·

Welcome to Hacker News. Where merely questioning the modern state of JavaScript is a heresy.

noahtallen 3y ago
The comment is questioning whether the interactive internet, where webpages can be computer programs instead of just documents, is a good idea. That’s a pretty broad claim! Complaining about modern JS is a different story, and it’s a pretty popular discussion point on HN :)
leptons 3y ago
>"download programs from the internet as a side effect of browsing and run them without even knowing it. That’s wildly insecure as a ground state." This is why that comment is getting downvotes. Javascript running in a web browser is probably one of the least insecure ways to run code that exists. It's been developed for almost 30 years to be secure, an attacker can't just do whatever they want on a system, there are many safeguards, and many smart people concerned with keeping JavaScript safe to run in a web browser. It isn't the same Javascript that it was 20 years ago so the "insecure" argument sounds like you really haven't kept up with the evolution of JS and web browsers.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  > and many smart people concerned with keeping JavaScript safe to run in a web browser. It is possible that that is why my comment is getting downvotes, but if that is the case, I think it is not a great defense; I think I handled it pretty well in the next paragraph. Many smart people shouldn’t be wasted on such an impossible task, and it shouldn’t require many smart people to start a little web browser.
  - leptons 3y ago
    What should it take? One smart person? A few average people? Do you realize how important web browsers are to modern life? Encryption alone takes many smart people to do right in a tool that billions of people use, so it should be no surprise that many smart people are helping secure, optimize, and extend javascript in such a widely used and universally important tool that is the web browser.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      A few talented but not unique engineers should be able to make a web browser. Like a window manager. It is a hard task, but in range of a solid community effort. The fact that the WWW is an important communication network means that it should not be difficult to make a tool that accesses it. It is bad that almost everybody’s access to it is gated by a massive ad company.
      - leptons 3y ago
        >A few talented but not unique engineers should be able to make a web browser. From the ground-up? No. They stand on the shoulders of many, many smart people. Countless. In your scenario are you expecting them to write an HTML layout engine from scratch, their own javascript interpreter, and CSS engine? Would they create their own SSL encryption libraries too? And all the code in between for image, video, and audio playback? Sure a few talented coders could import a full web browser engine that already does all that, and slap some buttons on it and call it a day. I'm not really sure where you're trying to move the goalposts to, so please define where you think the goalpost is. >The fact that the WWW is an important communication network means that it should not be difficult to make a tool that accesses it. Making up your own facts? The "WWW" is a very generalized way to call something that encompasses many different technologies. The "WWW" sits on top of the HTTP protocol, which sits on top of TCP/IP, which sits on top of various hardware layers, etc... So which part of that is supposed to be so simple anyone could recreate all of it?? The HTTP protocol is as simple a part of any of this as it gets - you do know how to create a full HTTP request yourself, don't you? All the headers? The exact byte sequence needed and the right carriage returns in all the right places? Sorry but "WWW" doesn't get any easier than the HTTP protocol, and most people - including programmers - don't have a clue how it works. >It is bad that almost everybody’s access to it is gated by a massive ad company. Except that isn't at all true. People are free to use the services that they want to, including install whatever web browser they want. Nobody is forcing them to use Google's Chrome.
        bee_rider 3y ago
        >> A few talented but not unique engineers should be able to make a web browser. > From the ground-up? No. I agree, projects should use the abstractions and libraries that make sense. The rest of your comment seems based on the idea that I think people should not do that, which would be very silly, so I’m not sure it is worthwhile to respond point-by-point.

The comment is questioning whether the interactive internet, where webpages can be computer programs instead of just documents, is a good idea. That’s a pretty broad claim! Complaining about modern JS is a different story, and it’s a pretty popular discussion point on HN :)

leptons 3y ago

>"download programs from the internet as a side effect of browsing and run them without even knowing it. That’s wildly insecure as a ground state." This is why that comment is getting downvotes. Javascript running in a web browser is probably one of the least insecure ways to run code that exists. It's been developed for almost 30 years to be secure, an attacker can't just do whatever they want on a system, there are many safeguards, and many smart people concerned with keeping JavaScript safe to run in a web browser. It isn't the same Javascript that it was 20 years ago so the "insecure" argument sounds like you really haven't kept up with the evolution of JS and web browsers.

bee_rider 3y ago
> and many smart people concerned with keeping JavaScript safe to run in a web browser. It is possible that that is why my comment is getting downvotes, but if that is the case, I think it is not a great defense; I think I handled it pretty well in the next paragraph. Many smart people shouldn’t be wasted on such an impossible task, and it shouldn’t require many smart people to start a little web browser.
- leptons 3y ago
  What should it take? One smart person? A few average people? Do you realize how important web browsers are to modern life? Encryption alone takes many smart people to do right in a tool that billions of people use, so it should be no surprise that many smart people are helping secure, optimize, and extend javascript in such a widely used and universally important tool that is the web browser.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    A few talented but not unique engineers should be able to make a web browser. Like a window manager. It is a hard task, but in range of a solid community effort. The fact that the WWW is an important communication network means that it should not be difficult to make a tool that accesses it. It is bad that almost everybody’s access to it is gated by a massive ad company.
    - leptons 3y ago
      >A few talented but not unique engineers should be able to make a web browser. From the ground-up? No. They stand on the shoulders of many, many smart people. Countless. In your scenario are you expecting them to write an HTML layout engine from scratch, their own javascript interpreter, and CSS engine? Would they create their own SSL encryption libraries too? And all the code in between for image, video, and audio playback? Sure a few talented coders could import a full web browser engine that already does all that, and slap some buttons on it and call it a day. I'm not really sure where you're trying to move the goalposts to, so please define where you think the goalpost is. >The fact that the WWW is an important communication network means that it should not be difficult to make a tool that accesses it. Making up your own facts? The "WWW" is a very generalized way to call something that encompasses many different technologies. The "WWW" sits on top of the HTTP protocol, which sits on top of TCP/IP, which sits on top of various hardware layers, etc... So which part of that is supposed to be so simple anyone could recreate all of it?? The HTTP protocol is as simple a part of any of this as it gets - you do know how to create a full HTTP request yourself, don't you? All the headers? The exact byte sequence needed and the right carriage returns in all the right places? Sorry but "WWW" doesn't get any easier than the HTTP protocol, and most people - including programmers - don't have a clue how it works. >It is bad that almost everybody’s access to it is gated by a massive ad company. Except that isn't at all true. People are free to use the services that they want to, including install whatever web browser they want. Nobody is forcing them to use Google's Chrome.
      - bee_rider 3y ago
        >> A few talented but not unique engineers should be able to make a web browser. > From the ground-up? No. I agree, projects should use the abstractions and libraries that make sense. The rest of your comment seems based on the idea that I think people should not do that, which would be very silly, so I’m not sure it is worthwhile to respond point-by-point.