8 ms·

I read the article twice but I'm having a hard time imagining how these are supposed to work. How does showing the note to the person that is trying to get brib

by durag 3y ago

I read the article twice but I'm having a hard time imagining how these are supposed to work. How does showing the note to the person that is trying to get bribed differ from just telling them it's wrong and that you won't do it? Usually in those situation you don't really have a choice, like when a cop stops you in the middle of the night. Is it meant to be given in a discrete way, so that the false note is discovered after the supposed bribe?

MontagFTB 3y ago
As a giver of one of these notes, I would imagine you have decided to stand against bribery no matter the outcome of the scenario where it is given. Hopefully reason wins out and the situation ends amicably. To address the bribery problem, though, there’s a sense where you have to be okay with things getting worse before they get better. It seems to me the note is a socially well known form of protest, which may go down better than a direct interaction.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sonofhans 3y ago
This is describing a different culture, so your expectations are being confounded. In places bribery is truly pervasive, paying bribes is a habit. You see your parents do it, you see how everyone around you accepts it. Indian (very broadly — this is a stereotype) culture can be less individualistic than the USA, and this makes it even harder to say no to things like this. It’s like tipping, in the USA — so pervasive that it’s invisible. And these days with digital point-of-sale systems, you have to take affirmative action _not_ to tip, and people in line around you can see, so the social pressure is enormous. So the note is proof that the person not paying the bribe is not alone, that they are part of a movement, that their actions are acceptable to at least some portion of their society. This makes is feel safer, and puts the onus on the briber to either escalate or to back down. It also relies on the sense of shame of the briber. Since bribes are commonplace, some civil servants depend on them for their livelihood, or at least their lifestyle. Confronted with the evidence of a social movement saying that their actions are not ok, they’re more likely to feel some shame, versus just feeling anger at a random citizen confronting them.
- _nalply 3y ago
  > It also relies on the sense of shame of the briber. You meant the sense of shame of the person being bribed? I ask to avoid a misunderstanding.
  - jimmydddd 3y ago
    I think they meant the person requesting the bribe payment would be ashamed? Why would the person being pressured to pay a bribe feel shame?
    - _nalply 3y ago
      Yeah that's exactly this! The person requesting the bribe payment = person being bribed or "bribee" The person paying the bribe = briber However GP wrote "shame of the briber". Oops!
- Semaphor 3y ago
  > you have to take affirmative action _not_ to tip, and people in line around you can see, so the social pressure is enormous. A foodtruck I watch on twitch has everyone choose an option. No tip, some pre-set amounts, or custom. So no social pressure there, as no one else will know. They are using the square register.
- ginko 3y ago
  >It’s like tipping, in the USA — so pervasive that it’s invisible. Incidentally giving out fake dollar bills as tip is or was a thing. At least enough for a handful articles: https://www.businessinsider.com/20-tip-bible-pamphlet-2015-12?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/20-tip-bible-pamphlet-2015-1...
  - mike_hock 3y ago
    Just like the zero rupee bills, these should be widespread. Not with a bible pamphlet inside, but an explanation why tipping culture is detrimental in the long run.
StockHuman 3y ago
In addition to other responses, know that the zero-note makes its way to the corrupt official's hands before they can inspect it. From their perspective, they've just completed an illegal act with someone willing to challenge their authority out of a sense of justice. What would you even do after receiving a zero note instead of a bribe as requested? So goes the example: of a smile and nothing more.
- alwa 3y ago
  But in cases where the bribe is to expedite an official act—they give the example of getting a driver license issued—why wouldn’t the official just give the smile then shuffle your application to the bottom of the pile?
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    The official would be wary of appearing to take retaliatory action, since by being given the note, the person would have already signalled that they are the type to actively oppose bribery rather than just refusing to pay and otherwise turning a blind eye.
araes 3y ago
Frankly, when I started reading the article, I was actually expecting far more direct, practical applications, rather than pseudo-shame that I don't trust corrupt officials to have. Stuff like: If you have to pay, then paying a portion in Zero Notes so the total money is reduced. Hiding fake money in the real money, so it will be obvious it was bribe money. Allow you to tip off police, while mostly looking innocent if you're caught "I thought it was a real ruppee!" Filling suitcases full of fake money, because they can't check before you leave (if you meet in public). Making them with electronics, so the bribers can be followed (has other creepy issues though). Making them with ink, that ruins other bribe money. I dunno, like every con movie trick that Hollywood's used in money capers.
- sonofhans 3y ago
  You know, there’s a lot of prior art here, which again is very culturally-specific: Mahatma Gandhi used non-violence and shame to liberate India from British rule. Imagine how that changes your outlook on the world, vs. the story of the American Revolution.

by durag 3y ago

MontagFTB 3y ago

As a giver of one of these notes, I would imagine you have decided to stand against bribery no matter the outcome of the scenario where it is given. Hopefully reason wins out and the situation ends amicably. To address the bribery problem, though, there’s a sense where you have to be okay with things getting worse before they get better. It seems to me the note is a socially well known form of protest, which may go down better than a direct interaction.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

sonofhans 3y ago

This is describing a different culture, so your expectations are being confounded. In places bribery is truly pervasive, paying bribes is a habit. You see your parents do it, you see how everyone around you accepts it. Indian (very broadly — this is a stereotype) culture can be less individualistic than the USA, and this makes it even harder to say no to things like this. It’s like tipping, in the USA — so pervasive that it’s invisible. And these days with digital point-of-sale systems, you have to take affirmative action _not_ to tip, and people in line around you can see, so the social pressure is enormous. So the note is proof that the person not paying the bribe is not alone, that they are part of a movement, that their actions are acceptable to at least some portion of their society. This makes is feel safer, and puts the onus on the briber to either escalate or to back down. It also relies on the sense of shame of the briber. Since bribes are commonplace, some civil servants depend on them for their livelihood, or at least their lifestyle. Confronted with the evidence of a social movement saying that their actions are not ok, they’re more likely to feel some shame, versus just feeling anger at a random citizen confronting them.

_nalply 3y ago
> It also relies on the sense of shame of the briber. You meant the sense of shame of the person being bribed? I ask to avoid a misunderstanding.
- jimmydddd 3y ago
  I think they meant the person requesting the bribe payment would be ashamed? Why would the person being pressured to pay a bribe feel shame?
  - _nalply 3y ago
    Yeah that's exactly this! The person requesting the bribe payment = person being bribed or "bribee" The person paying the bribe = briber However GP wrote "shame of the briber". Oops!
Semaphor 3y ago
> you have to take affirmative action _not_ to tip, and people in line around you can see, so the social pressure is enormous. A foodtruck I watch on twitch has everyone choose an option. No tip, some pre-set amounts, or custom. So no social pressure there, as no one else will know. They are using the square register.
ginko 3y ago
>It’s like tipping, in the USA — so pervasive that it’s invisible. Incidentally giving out fake dollar bills as tip is or was a thing. At least enough for a handful articles: https://www.businessinsider.com/20-tip-bible-pamphlet-2015-12?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/20-tip-bible-pamphlet-2015-1...
- mike_hock 3y ago
  Just like the zero rupee bills, these should be widespread. Not with a bible pamphlet inside, but an explanation why tipping culture is detrimental in the long run.

StockHuman 3y ago

In addition to other responses, know that the zero-note makes its way to the corrupt official's hands before they can inspect it. From their perspective, they've just completed an illegal act with someone willing to challenge their authority out of a sense of justice. What would you even do after receiving a zero note instead of a bribe as requested? So goes the example: of a smile and nothing more.

alwa 3y ago
But in cases where the bribe is to expedite an official act—they give the example of getting a driver license issued—why wouldn’t the official just give the smile then shuffle your application to the bottom of the pile?
- dotnet00 3y ago
  The official would be wary of appearing to take retaliatory action, since by being given the note, the person would have already signalled that they are the type to actively oppose bribery rather than just refusing to pay and otherwise turning a blind eye.

araes 3y ago

Frankly, when I started reading the article, I was actually expecting far more direct, practical applications, rather than pseudo-shame that I don't trust corrupt officials to have. Stuff like: If you have to pay, then paying a portion in Zero Notes so the total money is reduced. Hiding fake money in the real money, so it will be obvious it was bribe money. Allow you to tip off police, while mostly looking innocent if you're caught "I thought it was a real ruppee!" Filling suitcases full of fake money, because they can't check before you leave (if you meet in public). Making them with electronics, so the bribers can be followed (has other creepy issues though). Making them with ink, that ruins other bribe money. I dunno, like every con movie trick that Hollywood's used in money capers.

sonofhans 3y ago
You know, there’s a lot of prior art here, which again is very culturally-specific: Mahatma Gandhi used non-violence and shame to liberate India from British rule. Imagine how that changes your outlook on the world, vs. the story of the American Revolution.