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It's a little odd seeing the old stories about why poor nations fail to be popping up again on a forum of predominantly libertarian-minded hackers. Lots of pla

It's a little odd seeing the old stories about why poor nations fail to be popping up again on a forum of predominantly libertarian-minded hackers. Lots of places have wealth; but some squander it and some don't. Lots of places have been touched by the smelly hand of imperialism, but some prospered and some are ongoing failures. Lots of places have driven out Western "strongmen" as one poster called them, and lots haven't, and they have succeeded and failed economically in various ways. The Honduras experiment is an experiment in the latest theories of developmental economics, that arose as a reaction to the failure of the old stories. The idea is that some kinds of institutions are conducive to growth, and others aren't. Importing institutions from successful countries can be anti-growth but it doesn't have to be, nor does the absence of foreign investment somehow magically empower the citizens of a country. The rejection of this charter city because it 'smells of colonialism' seems a dishonest reason to reject things--motivated by clinging to old, feel-good ideas; refusing to try things that might or might not work because one would rather see the poor definitely starve than give up one's sense of moral righteousness on a risky endeavour.

jacobolus 14y ago
I think you’re responding to me? I never said anything about this charter city one way or another. I merely said that the analysis of causes of relative success of Honduras vs. Singapore, Hong Kong, and the UAE is facile and offensive, because it mostly ignores the context.
- cynicalkane 14y ago
  It's to a general idea exhibited by several people in this thread, including in a post you made. But were it a direct response to you I would have posted it as a direct response to you.
- civilian 14y ago
  > I never said anything about this charter city one way or another. Why didn't you? It's really weird that you have the top-rated comment in the thread, and gave a good perspective on the history of the region, yet you didn't actually say how your history lesson relates to Charter Cities.
jbooth 14y ago
I think you're a bit too hung up on the -isms here. Libertarianism! Colonialism! I better take my place on the line in defense of my -ism! The comments I saw were providing context on how Honduras is different than other places where the economic development zone city idea worked. Personally, I'd be most worried that the city can't really deliver on it's supposed guarantee of freedom from the surrounding climate. There was a coup there a few years ago, laws don't stop armed forces. Investors know this and might not invest. On the other hand, gotta try something.
- cynicalkane 14y ago
  Actually, I thought I was speaking against -isms. I oppose -isms in general and only commented that a libertarian-leaning forum of hackers would normally be expected to support a charter city.
hristov 14y ago
This forum is not one of predominantly libertarian hackers. I have been here a long time and have not found any predominant political leaning of this forum other than on specific issues related to technology law, intellectual property and privacy. So that statement is presumptive and wrong. Regarding the rest of your post, it will take me all day to point out all the various misconceptions and racisms there. But I should say that in my old country we had a 50 year experiment called communism forced upon us by a more powerful foreign country and it was no fun at all. That experiment also came highly recommended from the best minds in academia. That's why the whole idea of powerful countries doing experiments on weaker ones seems incredibly wrong and offensive to me. And no this is not "importing institutions from succesful countries." There is not a single successful country that has anything similar to this -- i.e., an autonomous region that is ruled by some economics professor and is not subject to the country's laws or democratic institutions. In fact if any politician even suggests this for America, their career is doomed. How about we don't experiment on poorer nations. How about we let them decide for themselves. This way if they do something wrong it will be their own fault. And if they want to pass laws that favor foreign investment they can pass those laws using their lawfully elected parliament and they can take their own responsibility for them. The current president of Honduras is the result of a military coup and very dodgy elections held by that same military after many arrests and disappearances. If this deal goes through it will not be considered by ordinary people in Honduras as something they chose. It will be considered as something dictated from the U.S. I am not sure how much that is true, but it is obvious that this is what the Hondurans will believe. The coup is already being blamed on the US.
- TheCowboy 14y ago
  The best minds in academia also advocated the "shock therapy" approach to post-communist countries, which was also forced upon these countries if they wanted loans and aid from the IMF, World Bank, and the west in general. Things didn't turn out well. What actually worked best was a more gradualist approach dictated from within. Which is not to say that external advice was disregarded, but was taken selectively. To root this more for HN viewers, imagine if VCs or Harvard MBAs dictated to your startup everything, such as your strategy, what to build, etc. It's best when solutions are grown from within coupled with advice and support. Relevant reading material for this view: economist Frederic Mishkin's The Next Great Globalization: How Disadvantaged Nations Can Harness Their Financial Systems to Get Rich (don't let the title turn you off) and nobel economist Joseph Stiglitz has a number of books on this topic

jacobolus 14y ago

I think you’re responding to me? I never said anything about this charter city one way or another. I merely said that the analysis of causes of relative success of Honduras vs. Singapore, Hong Kong, and the UAE is facile and offensive, because it mostly ignores the context.

cynicalkane 14y ago
It's to a general idea exhibited by several people in this thread, including in a post you made. But were it a direct response to you I would have posted it as a direct response to you.
civilian 14y ago
> I never said anything about this charter city one way or another. Why didn't you? It's really weird that you have the top-rated comment in the thread, and gave a good perspective on the history of the region, yet you didn't actually say how your history lesson relates to Charter Cities.

jbooth 14y ago

I think you're a bit too hung up on the -isms here. Libertarianism! Colonialism! I better take my place on the line in defense of my -ism! The comments I saw were providing context on how Honduras is different than other places where the economic development zone city idea worked. Personally, I'd be most worried that the city can't really deliver on it's supposed guarantee of freedom from the surrounding climate. There was a coup there a few years ago, laws don't stop armed forces. Investors know this and might not invest. On the other hand, gotta try something.

cynicalkane 14y ago
Actually, I thought I was speaking against -isms. I oppose -isms in general and only commented that a libertarian-leaning forum of hackers would normally be expected to support a charter city.

hristov 14y ago

This forum is not one of predominantly libertarian hackers. I have been here a long time and have not found any predominant political leaning of this forum other than on specific issues related to technology law, intellectual property and privacy. So that statement is presumptive and wrong. Regarding the rest of your post, it will take me all day to point out all the various misconceptions and racisms there. But I should say that in my old country we had a 50 year experiment called communism forced upon us by a more powerful foreign country and it was no fun at all. That experiment also came highly recommended from the best minds in academia. That's why the whole idea of powerful countries doing experiments on weaker ones seems incredibly wrong and offensive to me. And no this is not "importing institutions from succesful countries." There is not a single successful country that has anything similar to this -- i.e., an autonomous region that is ruled by some economics professor and is not subject to the country's laws or democratic institutions. In fact if any politician even suggests this for America, their career is doomed. How about we don't experiment on poorer nations. How about we let them decide for themselves. This way if they do something wrong it will be their own fault. And if they want to pass laws that favor foreign investment they can pass those laws using their lawfully elected parliament and they can take their own responsibility for them. The current president of Honduras is the result of a military coup and very dodgy elections held by that same military after many arrests and disappearances. If this deal goes through it will not be considered by ordinary people in Honduras as something they chose. It will be considered as something dictated from the U.S. I am not sure how much that is true, but it is obvious that this is what the Hondurans will believe. The coup is already being blamed on the US.

TheCowboy 14y ago
The best minds in academia also advocated the "shock therapy" approach to post-communist countries, which was also forced upon these countries if they wanted loans and aid from the IMF, World Bank, and the west in general. Things didn't turn out well. What actually worked best was a more gradualist approach dictated from within. Which is not to say that external advice was disregarded, but was taken selectively. To root this more for HN viewers, imagine if VCs or Harvard MBAs dictated to your startup everything, such as your strategy, what to build, etc. It's best when solutions are grown from within coupled with advice and support. Relevant reading material for this view: economist Frederic Mishkin's The Next Great Globalization: How Disadvantaged Nations Can Harness Their Financial Systems to Get Rich (don't let the title turn you off) and nobel economist Joseph Stiglitz has a number of books on this topic