5 ms·

If labour relations are a problem in American then there's no way they are expanding into Europe.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
TSMC is already expanding in the EU, specifically in Dresden, Germany. Because EU skilled labor is much cheaper than US skilled labor and in some aspects US unions are more powerful than unions in EU. That's why the EU is already full of semi fabs and other kinds of factories. Worker's rights are not an issue when labor is 30% of what they would have to pay in the US for the same skill/talent. US skilled workers don't have it any worse than EU skilled workers, often way better. This isn't flipping burgers at McD's where you have no bargaining power and need unions and labor regulations to protect you. And you need a lot of skilled people to operate a heavily automated semi fab: PLC programmers, opticians, physicists, material scientists, contractors, HVAC, electricians, plumbers, construction workers, Q/A, etc and irrespectable of workers rights, all those have much lower bargaining power for high wages in the EU than in the US, due to market supply/demand. Otherwise there would be no investments in the EU and nobody would be making stuff here at all.
- kranke155 3y ago
  30%? You think they pay 30 percent US wages? You might be thinking of two very different things - in the US wages are higher but social benefits that employers pay for are lower. In the EU you might pay a lot more per worker than his wage since you pay much higher taxes.
  - pylua 3y ago
    Over the past 10 years the us dollar has gained in strength a lot compared to other countries. Perhaps if we want to bring this stuff back into the country the currency needs to be devalued. I assume it will be naturally devalued over time, even compared to other countries, considering the national debt.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    A friend of mine is a phd post-doc in the EU doing some fancy research I don't comprehend with lasers that has applications in the semi industry. He's paid about 40k Euros. His peers form the US he meets at conferences working in the same field make upwards of six figures, over 3 times as much, for the same work. So yes, I'd say my math was about right on the money. If you wanna hire skilled workers in the US it'll cost you 2-3x more than in EU, taxes and all included.
    - silverquiet 3y ago
      Healthcare being outrageously expensive in the US and being borne largely by employers doesn’t seem to help either. Ironically, I see it as a negative for the employees as well since it forces them to be dependent on their employer in the event of a medical situation.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        Which is more expensive for an employer? US healthcare or EU workers' rights that include 25+ paid vacation days, unlimited paid sick leave, difficult to fire, etc while American workers don't, but get bigger wages instead? I don't know the exact answer, but what I'm trying to say is that there's no free lunch for employers in either location, but I'm pretty sure they do their homework on this and they know the exact answer when they decided to open up shop somewhere.
        silverquiet 3y ago
        If I had to guess, I’d keep my finger down on US healthcare because it’s just so expensive. When you don’t pay your employees that much, sick time isn’t as expensive either, and US workers in the actual industries we’re talking about tend to get at least decent treatment (for the time being at least); it’s the wage-slave, burger-flippers and laborers we’ve deemed as truly disposable.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  The more worker’s rights the less work?
whimsicalism 3y ago
Sectoral bargaining agreements are less problematic wage-wise than employer unions.

TSMC is already expanding in the EU, specifically in Dresden, Germany. Because EU skilled labor is much cheaper than US skilled labor and in some aspects US unions are more powerful than unions in EU. That's why the EU is already full of semi fabs and other kinds of factories. Worker's rights are not an issue when labor is 30% of what they would have to pay in the US for the same skill/talent. US skilled workers don't have it any worse than EU skilled workers, often way better. This isn't flipping burgers at McD's where you have no bargaining power and need unions and labor regulations to protect you. And you need a lot of skilled people to operate a heavily automated semi fab: PLC programmers, opticians, physicists, material scientists, contractors, HVAC, electricians, plumbers, construction workers, Q/A, etc and irrespectable of workers rights, all those have much lower bargaining power for high wages in the EU than in the US, due to market supply/demand. Otherwise there would be no investments in the EU and nobody would be making stuff here at all.

kranke155 3y ago
30%? You think they pay 30 percent US wages? You might be thinking of two very different things - in the US wages are higher but social benefits that employers pay for are lower. In the EU you might pay a lot more per worker than his wage since you pay much higher taxes.
- pylua 3y ago
  Over the past 10 years the us dollar has gained in strength a lot compared to other countries. Perhaps if we want to bring this stuff back into the country the currency needs to be devalued. I assume it will be naturally devalued over time, even compared to other countries, considering the national debt.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  A friend of mine is a phd post-doc in the EU doing some fancy research I don't comprehend with lasers that has applications in the semi industry. He's paid about 40k Euros. His peers form the US he meets at conferences working in the same field make upwards of six figures, over 3 times as much, for the same work. So yes, I'd say my math was about right on the money. If you wanna hire skilled workers in the US it'll cost you 2-3x more than in EU, taxes and all included.
  - silverquiet 3y ago
    Healthcare being outrageously expensive in the US and being borne largely by employers doesn’t seem to help either. Ironically, I see it as a negative for the employees as well since it forces them to be dependent on their employer in the event of a medical situation.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      Which is more expensive for an employer? US healthcare or EU workers' rights that include 25+ paid vacation days, unlimited paid sick leave, difficult to fire, etc while American workers don't, but get bigger wages instead? I don't know the exact answer, but what I'm trying to say is that there's no free lunch for employers in either location, but I'm pretty sure they do their homework on this and they know the exact answer when they decided to open up shop somewhere.
      - silverquiet 3y ago
        If I had to guess, I’d keep my finger down on US healthcare because it’s just so expensive. When you don’t pay your employees that much, sick time isn’t as expensive either, and US workers in the actual industries we’re talking about tend to get at least decent treatment (for the time being at least); it’s the wage-slave, burger-flippers and laborers we’ve deemed as truly disposable.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
mensetmanusman 3y ago
The more worker’s rights the less work?

whimsicalism 3y ago

Sectoral bargaining agreements are less problematic wage-wise than employer unions.