3 ms·

They generate text which looks like the kind of text that people who do have understanding generate.

ninetyninenine 3y ago
Two key things here to realize. People also often don't understand things and have trouble separating fact from fiction. By logic only one religion or no religion is true. Consequently also by logic most religions in the world where their followers believe the religion to be true are hallucinating. The second thing to realize that your argument doesn't really apply. Its in theory possible to create a stochastic parrot that can imitate to a degree of 100 percent the output of a human who truly understands things. It blurs the line of what is understanding. One can even define true understanding as a stochastic parrot that generated text indistinguishable total understanding.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > People also often don't understand things and have trouble separating fact from fiction. That's not the point being argued. Understanding, critical thinking, knowledge, common sense, etc. all these things exist on a spectrum - both in principle and certainly in humans. In fact, in any particular human there are different levels of competence across these dimensions. What we are debating, is whether or not, an LLM can have understanding itself. One test is: can an LLM understand understanding? The human mind has come to the remarkable understanding that understanding itself is provisional and incomplete.
  - ninetyninenine 3y ago
    Of course it can. Simply ask the LLM about itself. chatGPT4 can answer. In fact. That question is one of the more trivial questions it will most likely not hallucinate on. The reason why I alluded to humans here is because I'm saying we are setting the bar too high. It's like everyone is saying it hallucinates and therefore it can't understand anything. I'm saying that we hallucinate too and because of that LLMs can approach humans and human level understanding.
DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
In order to do that effectively, an LLM has to itself have understanding. At a certain point, we end up in a metaphysical argument about whether a machine that is capable of responding as if it had understanding actually does have understanding. It ends up being a meaningless discussion.
- Karellen 3y ago
  I am reminded of Feynman's story about teaching physics in one Brazil university, one semester, a few decades ago: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education The students learned to repeat the text of the books, without "understanding" what the books were describing. I'm sure this says something about one side or the other of this conundrum, but I'm not sure which. :-)
- cultureswitch 3y ago
  That is the argument we're having though. The central claim is that a machine which answers exactly the same thing a human would answer given the same input does not have understanding, while the human does. This claim is religious, not scientific. In this worldview, "understanding" is a property of humans which can't be observed but exists nonetheless. It's like claiming humans have a soul.

Two key things here to realize. People also often don't understand things and have trouble separating fact from fiction. By logic only one religion or no religion is true. Consequently also by logic most religions in the world where their followers believe the religion to be true are hallucinating. The second thing to realize that your argument doesn't really apply. Its in theory possible to create a stochastic parrot that can imitate to a degree of 100 percent the output of a human who truly understands things. It blurs the line of what is understanding. One can even define true understanding as a stochastic parrot that generated text indistinguishable total understanding.

andsoitis 3y ago
> People also often don't understand things and have trouble separating fact from fiction. That's not the point being argued. Understanding, critical thinking, knowledge, common sense, etc. all these things exist on a spectrum - both in principle and certainly in humans. In fact, in any particular human there are different levels of competence across these dimensions. What we are debating, is whether or not, an LLM can have understanding itself. One test is: can an LLM understand understanding? The human mind has come to the remarkable understanding that understanding itself is provisional and incomplete.
- ninetyninenine 3y ago
  Of course it can. Simply ask the LLM about itself. chatGPT4 can answer. In fact. That question is one of the more trivial questions it will most likely not hallucinate on. The reason why I alluded to humans here is because I'm saying we are setting the bar too high. It's like everyone is saying it hallucinates and therefore it can't understand anything. I'm saying that we hallucinate too and because of that LLMs can approach humans and human level understanding.

DiogenesKynikos 3y ago

In order to do that effectively, an LLM has to itself have understanding. At a certain point, we end up in a metaphysical argument about whether a machine that is capable of responding as if it had understanding actually does have understanding. It ends up being a meaningless discussion.

Karellen 3y ago
I am reminded of Feynman's story about teaching physics in one Brazil university, one semester, a few decades ago: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education The students learned to repeat the text of the books, without "understanding" what the books were describing. I'm sure this says something about one side or the other of this conundrum, but I'm not sure which. :-)
cultureswitch 3y ago
That is the argument we're having though. The central claim is that a machine which answers exactly the same thing a human would answer given the same input does not have understanding, while the human does. This claim is religious, not scientific. In this worldview, "understanding" is a property of humans which can't be observed but exists nonetheless. It's like claiming humans have a soul.