6 ms·

To nitpick: It WOULD work, but alas, you don't do it. This is also why the USA has all those anti-strike laws, especially regarding railroads.

by kevmo 3y ago

tunnuz 3y ago
It might have something to do with being chased by brutal horse-mounted police and beaten up in the past.
reaperman 3y ago
> It WOULD work, but alas, you don't do it. This is also why the USA has all those anti-strike laws. My mom did it reasonably often as a teacher. The state made it illegal for her to ever strike again. Maybe not being willing to go to jail for refusing to work is why she doesn't do it? It's crazy to me that the law is basically "show up to work for whatever we decide to pay you, or go to jail" (via contempt of court, usually, if they continue to strike after a judge orders teachers to go back to work and fines them for each day of missed work). So the other option is to "strike" by quitting and starting over in a completely new career. Enough people have done that that some schools are having trouble opening[0]. Somehow even that doesn't seem to raise wages. So -- for teachers at least, striking literally doesn't work. Enough teachers quit that schools can't stay open, and yet the wages don't rise to hire enough teachers. It's insane. 0: https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/03/us/teacher-shortage-lowering-qualifications-wisconsin/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/03/us/teacher-shortage-lowering-...
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  Generally if it is an illegal strike, it means you can be legally fired, not that you will be taken to jail.
  - reaperman 3y ago
    https://twitter.com/DeAngelisCorey/status/1749835342838906893 https://twitter.com/DeAngelisCorey/status/174983534283890689... Jail is always an option when someone is subject to contempt of court. In other states it's the individual teachers who get automatically fined, not the union. Contempt of court could also apply to the individuals if the judge wanted to make it so.
    - whimsicalism 3y ago
      > Jail is always an option when someone is subject to contempt of court Not civil contempt :) I don't know of any modern case in the US where so eone has ever been jailed for striking, even wildcat.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  I don't want to be dramatic here so don't read too deeply into the comparison: I'm sure black people weren't willing to go to jail either some 60 years ago. Or worse. Most of the biggest change was achieved with the biggest sacrifice. If they throw teachers in jail over not doing their job, the state loses in the long term. If enough refuse to do it they have to bargain, illegal or not. And it wouldn't take long since it'd imoh be a few days (if that) before the parents join in, with kids either not learning or not going to school over the lack of supervision. The big issue here is the collective isn't big enough in some areas. Or there's enough supply coming in when the old batch walk out (which is partially why the teachers quitting aren't getting the effect. Teaching is partially a passion job and thst keeps supply high).
  - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
    The problem is you have to sacrifice to fight against the move of people that take no risk. It's a very unfair battle.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      Indeed. The house holds most of the cards. But it's not risk-free per se. It's just a prisoners dilemma that hasn't had a chance to shift to the worst case scenario of "literally everyone leaves". Probably still a safe bet, but it's only as safe as the people they are gambling with. Sad part is that it's bad but not necessarily "life or death" for many teachers as of now. But it may be that way if we keep going.
  - arexxbifs 3y ago
    > If they throw teachers in jail over not doing their job, the state loses in the long term. British health workers (nurses, ambulance workers) went on strike during 2022 and 2023. Their union eventually accepted a 5% pay increase - down from their initial 19% demand - which doesn't even begin to cover inflation. Most demands fizzle out into nearly nothing and most unions are by now massive bureaucratic machines, staffed with people more focused on their own interests and careers than on those of their members. The same pattern can be seen with nurses in Sweden. Salaries aren't high enough, funds aren't allocated, nurses quit their jobs. To find new hires, standards must be lowered. "The state" no longer cares. That's what decline looks like.
- devjab 3y ago
  To many Danes (everyone I’ve ever discussed it with) Americans are simply “ridiculous” in the way you keep electing people who hurt you. It’s like you’re in a continuous abusive relationship with your own democracy. My wife and I just had twins, and while it went fine they needed CPAP to help their lungs develop fully because they were born with a c-section. Which put them in the children’s intensive care unit for around 12 hours and afterward we lived for 7 days in the specialised ward for children with troubled births. And it cost us around $100 because the lodging for spouses isn’t free for the first 3 days(3 meals a day + fruits and cake and all sorts of drinkable stuff that I don’t know the English names for… mostly concentrated fruit you mix with water). Now, I do pay around 57% in taxes on everything I earn above $90k and 39% before that (my wife pays 37% since she doesn’t earn above $90k). But I do sort of “cheat” the system by investing 14% of my pay before taxes into methods that will let me pay 25% in taxes on another $10k a year, and some that goes directly into my children’s investments. Anyway, that is what we pay for everyone to have this opportunity in our country. I’m not going to pretend our system is perfect. Like, I have a private health insurance through my job which led me skip a two year wait time when I was diagnosed with bipolar type2 after having some issues with stress. And that’s obviously not available to everyone, and a two year wait period is obviously terrible for people who can’t turn to the private sector. So everything isn’t perfect. But when you then read about how US citizens pay ridiculous amount of money to have children… when they live in a nation which is significantly richer than ours… it just baffles the mind. Similarly we have about 9 months of maternity leave. 2 months of which are with full pay for my wife, and 14 weeks are with full pay for me (I have really terms through my work often it’s only 2-4 weeks for spouses). But even when you aren’t on full pay, you’re still getting around $5k a month from the government. You’re also paid around $1k per child every 3 months for the first couple of years of their lives (something which should probably be limited by income if we’re honest since people like us need it a lot less than most Danes). My wife transferred some of her maternity leave and was decades sick for the first two months, so I’m getting around 30 weeks of paternity leave which does mean a significant decrease in income this year, but then you look at how US citizens basically have no paid leave and again… it’s just so weird. And you’ve chosen this yourselves. I know it’s not as easy as that, but you are a democracy and you do elect your leaders and a huge part of you are basically wage slaves. I know a lot of HN’ers are likely to also have good terms, it comes with our line or work, but as a whole… I mean, just why?
- ponector 3y ago
  Either accept current treatment or quit. It is fascinating how on individual level everyone wants better education for their children but as society people do the opposite. Government and their voters are not interested in paying more or in better educated children. In the end dumb people are easier to manipulate to do "right and only correct" decision on the election day.
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    > It is fascinating how on individual level everyone wants better education for their children but as society people do the opposite. Every time a government changes everything is up for grabs too. Suddenly politicians are experts and can decide on the curriculum. They went to school once so know everything about teaching?
phantomathkg 3y ago
> This is also why the USA has all those anti-strike laws, especially regarding railroads. And the people suffer?
- arexxbifs 3y ago
  Only from things like regular and catastrophic freight train derailments.
- kevmo 3y ago
  Yes. The people suffer greatly.

To nitpick: It WOULD work, but alas, you don't do it. This is also why the USA has all those anti-strike laws, especially regarding railroads.

by kevmo 3y ago

To nitpick: It WOULD work, but alas, you don't do it. This is also why the USA has all those anti-strike laws, especially regarding railroads.

tunnuz 3y ago

It might have something to do with being chased by brutal horse-mounted police and beaten up in the past.

reaperman 3y ago

> It WOULD work, but alas, you don't do it. This is also why the USA has all those anti-strike laws. My mom did it reasonably often as a teacher. The state made it illegal for her to ever strike again. Maybe not being willing to go to jail for refusing to work is why she doesn't do it? It's crazy to me that the law is basically "show up to work for whatever we decide to pay you, or go to jail" (via contempt of court, usually, if they continue to strike after a judge orders teachers to go back to work and fines them for each day of missed work). So the other option is to "strike" by quitting and starting over in a completely new career. Enough people have done that that some schools are having trouble opening[0]. Somehow even that doesn't seem to raise wages. So -- for teachers at least, striking literally doesn't work. Enough teachers quit that schools can't stay open, and yet the wages don't rise to hire enough teachers. It's insane. 0: https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/03/us/teacher-shortage-lowering-qualifications-wisconsin/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/03/us/teacher-shortage-lowering-...

whimsicalism 3y ago
Generally if it is an illegal strike, it means you can be legally fired, not that you will be taken to jail.
- reaperman 3y ago
  https://twitter.com/DeAngelisCorey/status/1749835342838906893 https://twitter.com/DeAngelisCorey/status/174983534283890689... Jail is always an option when someone is subject to contempt of court. In other states it's the individual teachers who get automatically fined, not the union. Contempt of court could also apply to the individuals if the judge wanted to make it so.
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    > Jail is always an option when someone is subject to contempt of court Not civil contempt :) I don't know of any modern case in the US where so eone has ever been jailed for striking, even wildcat.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
I don't want to be dramatic here so don't read too deeply into the comparison: I'm sure black people weren't willing to go to jail either some 60 years ago. Or worse. Most of the biggest change was achieved with the biggest sacrifice. If they throw teachers in jail over not doing their job, the state loses in the long term. If enough refuse to do it they have to bargain, illegal or not. And it wouldn't take long since it'd imoh be a few days (if that) before the parents join in, with kids either not learning or not going to school over the lack of supervision. The big issue here is the collective isn't big enough in some areas. Or there's enough supply coming in when the old batch walk out (which is partially why the teachers quitting aren't getting the effect. Teaching is partially a passion job and thst keeps supply high).
- BiteCode_dev 3y ago
  The problem is you have to sacrifice to fight against the move of people that take no risk. It's a very unfair battle.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    Indeed. The house holds most of the cards. But it's not risk-free per se. It's just a prisoners dilemma that hasn't had a chance to shift to the worst case scenario of "literally everyone leaves". Probably still a safe bet, but it's only as safe as the people they are gambling with. Sad part is that it's bad but not necessarily "life or death" for many teachers as of now. But it may be that way if we keep going.
- arexxbifs 3y ago
  > If they throw teachers in jail over not doing their job, the state loses in the long term. British health workers (nurses, ambulance workers) went on strike during 2022 and 2023. Their union eventually accepted a 5% pay increase - down from their initial 19% demand - which doesn't even begin to cover inflation. Most demands fizzle out into nearly nothing and most unions are by now massive bureaucratic machines, staffed with people more focused on their own interests and careers than on those of their members. The same pattern can be seen with nurses in Sweden. Salaries aren't high enough, funds aren't allocated, nurses quit their jobs. To find new hires, standards must be lowered. "The state" no longer cares. That's what decline looks like.
devjab 3y ago
To many Danes (everyone I’ve ever discussed it with) Americans are simply “ridiculous” in the way you keep electing people who hurt you. It’s like you’re in a continuous abusive relationship with your own democracy. My wife and I just had twins, and while it went fine they needed CPAP to help their lungs develop fully because they were born with a c-section. Which put them in the children’s intensive care unit for around 12 hours and afterward we lived for 7 days in the specialised ward for children with troubled births. And it cost us around $100 because the lodging for spouses isn’t free for the first 3 days(3 meals a day + fruits and cake and all sorts of drinkable stuff that I don’t know the English names for… mostly concentrated fruit you mix with water). Now, I do pay around 57% in taxes on everything I earn above $90k and 39% before that (my wife pays 37% since she doesn’t earn above $90k). But I do sort of “cheat” the system by investing 14% of my pay before taxes into methods that will let me pay 25% in taxes on another $10k a year, and some that goes directly into my children’s investments. Anyway, that is what we pay for everyone to have this opportunity in our country. I’m not going to pretend our system is perfect. Like, I have a private health insurance through my job which led me skip a two year wait time when I was diagnosed with bipolar type2 after having some issues with stress. And that’s obviously not available to everyone, and a two year wait period is obviously terrible for people who can’t turn to the private sector. So everything isn’t perfect. But when you then read about how US citizens pay ridiculous amount of money to have children… when they live in a nation which is significantly richer than ours… it just baffles the mind. Similarly we have about 9 months of maternity leave. 2 months of which are with full pay for my wife, and 14 weeks are with full pay for me (I have really terms through my work often it’s only 2-4 weeks for spouses). But even when you aren’t on full pay, you’re still getting around $5k a month from the government. You’re also paid around $1k per child every 3 months for the first couple of years of their lives (something which should probably be limited by income if we’re honest since people like us need it a lot less than most Danes). My wife transferred some of her maternity leave and was decades sick for the first two months, so I’m getting around 30 weeks of paternity leave which does mean a significant decrease in income this year, but then you look at how US citizens basically have no paid leave and again… it’s just so weird. And you’ve chosen this yourselves. I know it’s not as easy as that, but you are a democracy and you do elect your leaders and a huge part of you are basically wage slaves. I know a lot of HN’ers are likely to also have good terms, it comes with our line or work, but as a whole… I mean, just why?
ponector 3y ago
Either accept current treatment or quit. It is fascinating how on individual level everyone wants better education for their children but as society people do the opposite. Government and their voters are not interested in paying more or in better educated children. In the end dumb people are easier to manipulate to do "right and only correct" decision on the election day.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  > It is fascinating how on individual level everyone wants better education for their children but as society people do the opposite. Every time a government changes everything is up for grabs too. Suddenly politicians are experts and can decide on the curriculum. They went to school once so know everything about teaching?

phantomathkg 3y ago

> This is also why the USA has all those anti-strike laws, especially regarding railroads. And the people suffer?

arexxbifs 3y ago
Only from things like regular and catastrophic freight train derailments.
kevmo 3y ago
Yes. The people suffer greatly.