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Who Wants To Buy Honduras?
- jameswilsterman 15y agoDoes anyone know any more specific proposals for how the city will be laid out or what laws will be adopted?
- civilian 15y agoYes, you can find more here: http://www.chartercities.org/ http://www.chartercities.org/
- blahedo 15y agoIf the problem is that the government is dominated by a few wealthy families and heavily-invested foreign corporations control the exports, how could it possibly be solved by creating an area that is dominated by a board of a few wealthy people and tries to attract heavy investment from foreign corporations? This doesn't "reek of" colonialism. This is colonialism.
- gee_totes 15y agoI think the idea is that there will be a more diverse group of wealthy people to dominate the new cities, as opposed to just a few wealthy families. Quite a neo-conservative (or is it neo-liberal) idea: More freedom through more rich people dominating the under classes! Of course, some would claim that the writer of this article is just a shrill for the 1%[0] [0] http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/05/adam-davidson-parrots-disinformation-as-he-extols-rule-by-the-top-0-1.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/05/adam-davidson-parrots...
- viggity 15y agoI hate to be pedantic here, but I think you mean "shill" instead of "shrill". Technically what you did there is called a malapropism, where two similar sounding words are misused because the alternative wording could make sense as well. I always thought the saying was "for all intensive purposes", but the actual saying is "for all intents and purposes".
- waterlesscloud 15y agoThe idea here seems to be to transition from a system focused on extracting wealth to a system focused on creating wealth. This is definitely something that will have to happen in poor nations exploited by internal and/or external sources, there's no question about it. Whether or not this particular plan can actually succeed at making the transition is certainly up for debate, but the goals it sets seem to pretty clearly be good ones.
- blahedo 15y agoWell the goals are good, but if you buy into the whole "noble savage" thing, the goals of a lot of the first-round colonialists weren't so bad either. I think the distinction between extracting vs creating wealth is a narrow one, when the mechanism for creating wealth is essentially mining the local native population for its labour rather than its natural resources---and extracting the created wealth. I mean, if you think colonialism has a net-positive effect on the natives, you would not be alone, and there are certainly some positive effects (which may or may not outweigh the many negative effects). But denying that the OP proposal is a form of colonialism seems disingenuous at best. If you're going to promote it as a good thing, you might as well embrace it.
- quadhome 15y agoI think the idea is that you can't mine someone for skilled labour.
- Daniel_Newby 15y ago> ... how could it possibly be solved by creating an area that is dominated by a board of a few wealthy people ... Some wealthy people want to tax a million prosperous citizens, not rule a million peasants. Not only do you get richer that way, it is safer.
- jacobolus 15y ago> He eventually realized something that seems obvious to any nonacademic, that poor countries are saddled with laws and, crucially, customs that prevent new ideas from taking shape. [...] The United Arab Emirates, Hong Kong and Singapore were able to build well-designed cities that housed and employed millions, in part by persuading foreigners to invest heavily. It’s really obnoxious that the author allows this facile analysis to pass without any attempt to provide context. Hong Kong and Singapore were Western colonial corporate/financial/trade centers for a giant continent which was otherwise mostly blocked off, and so were bottlenecks through which massive amounts of capital flowed (and goods: HK, Singapore, and Shanghai are the busiest ports in Asia). The UAE is a tiny country with one of the largest oil reserves in the world. The claim that the main problem poor countries have is “customs that prevent new ideas”, as compared to – at least in the case of Honduras – 500 years of quite shocking exploitation and violence (diving into Honduran history books is not for the faint of heart), and for most the last 100 years political control by US-backed strongmen and American fruit companies and frequently the US military, as the original “banana republic”, is offensive. [He did mention that Dole/Chiquita “have controlled its agricultural exports”, but left it at that.] Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Honduras#Honduras_in_the_twentieth_century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Honduras#Honduras_in... Disclaimer: I grew up in southern Mexico, and a couple years ago took a course on Mesoamerican colonial history from the former Honduran Minister of Culture, who fled to the US after the 2009 coup.
- its_so_on 15y agoI don't know, what you call "really obnoxious" is, I would say, par for the course in journalism - but not because that's a low standard! The facts are there, and what is missing that you provide is, well, not a low standard. You're just a stranger to me so this is nothing personal, but I would say your analysis is 'particularly deep' and insightful. In other words, it's not that journalistic standards are low: it's that I think you (jacobolus) are inordinately insightful on this front and probably worth millions (over a few years) if you leverage this in the right international context.
- its_so_on 15y ago
- toemetoch 15y agoPaul Romer's ... selected publications: http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~promer/selected_publications.shtml http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~promer/selected_publications.sht... TED talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_romer.html http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_romer.html Not my field but worth a peek I guess.
- Jach 15y agoI'll add to this with a link discussing Romer's blatant ripoff of colonialism, and what the state of the evidence is about whether colonialism produces good results: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/08/from-cromer-to-romer-and-back-again.html http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/08/from-cr...
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- mseebach 15y agoI think you've got the wrong link there. You seem to have meant to add something of substance, but the link is to a post that appears to do little more than say "niggaz" a lot and throw mud in pretty much all directions.
- Jach 15y agoBoth "substance" and "a lot" are entirely a matter of personal taste in this instance, I guess. I don't consider a word "x" appearing 0.04482294935006723442402510085% of the time in a post to be "a lot", but I recognize the existence of people who believe more than 0 of anything is a lot. For the substance, well, there's a lot of words there, but of course I've read posts with 40 words and posts with 11,000 words that both conveyed the same small amount of substance. I do think the link has a non-zero not-insignificant amount to add (or why bother sharing as a child of another link-sharing comment) especially if you include the links from that link; I think it has at least as much substance as the actual submission here. (And look, the author himself has even posted here, splendid. If you think his light-weight comments here have substance, make sure you give him an upvote.)
- jayferd 15y agoI sit on a man's back, choking him, and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by any means possible, except getting off his back. -- Leo Tolstoy Any solution to the suffering in Honduras will have to involve stopping the injustice there - which means Dole and Chiquita will have to give up the notion of "basically-free labor". You don't need to help the poor - just get off their backs.
- ChuckMcM 15y agoSo here is the question, do dole and chiquita get away with this because there is nothing else for these people to do? Or do they get away with it because they have created a system which effectively creates indentured servants? I am not familiar enough with Honduras to comment on that. I noted in the article that the proposed city would have room for the entire population + 2 million. So if this city provides opportunities for the people who now labor in the fields, and they all migrate there, Dole and Chiquita would be out of workers would they not? If this is how the Hondurans envision it working it seems that they are trying to 'get off the backs' of the labor pool.
- sp332 15y agoEver wonder where the term "Banana Republic" came from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic#Honduras https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic#Honduras Cuyamel Banana Company literally staged a coup to install a more friendly government in Honduras. edited because I had the wrong banana company. Lest you think Chiquita is innocent, look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_massacre and a more thorough description of Honduras in particular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honduras#International_influence_in_the_20th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honduras#International_influen...
- ChuckMcM 15y agoFamiliar with the term, but what I don't know is if a similar move on their part today would work, do you have any insights into that? Argentina recently nationalized a lot of their energy infrastructure and its pissed off some big oil folks but while in the past they might start up a guerilla army to cause trouble I haven't seen that so far. And of course in terms of economies Argentina is way above Honduras so I get that it isn't a fair comparison. But without first hand knowledge our sources I struggle to reason about the success chances for Honduras' efforts beyond some basic human action / reaction models.
- DanielBMarkham 15y agoWe see this same thing in huge development shops. The rules, structure, and culture has become such that it's impossible to get real progress done. In such cases, if we can get firm commitment from management to leave high performing cells alone come what may, we can create small packets of high-performance that can then set an example. I think this is a great idea. However, from personal experience I can tell you that the rest of the system will actively seek to kill these pockets -- mostly through well-meaning efforts and concerns. It'll be a tough row to hoe for Honduras. I'd also note that in environments like this it's typical for everybody to have a story about how they (and they alone) could fix it if only one thing was changed. If their pet cause was addressed. These stories can sound very attractive, and no doubt contain a great deal of truth, but you must remember that it's stories like this that perpetuate a system that gets more and more complex and unwieldy as patches are applied and then as patches are applied to the patches. Nope, starting over is their only shot. I wish them well.
- cynicalkane 15y agoIt's a little odd seeing the old stories about why poor nations fail to be popping up again on a forum of predominantly libertarian-minded hackers. Lots of places have wealth; but some squander it and some don't. Lots of places have been touched by the smelly hand of imperialism, but some prospered and some are ongoing failures. Lots of places have driven out Western "strongmen" as one poster called them, and lots haven't, and they have succeeded and failed economically in various ways. The Honduras experiment is an experiment in the latest theories of developmental economics, that arose as a reaction to the failure of the old stories. The idea is that some kinds of institutions are conducive to growth, and others aren't. Importing institutions from successful countries can be anti-growth but it doesn't have to be, nor does the absence of foreign investment somehow magically empower the citizens of a country. The rejection of this charter city because it 'smells of colonialism' seems a dishonest reason to reject things--motivated by clinging to old, feel-good ideas; refusing to try things that might or might not work because one would rather see the poor definitely starve than give up one's sense of moral righteousness on a risky endeavour.
- jacobolus 15y agoI think you’re responding to me? I never said anything about this charter city one way or another. I merely said that the analysis of causes of relative success of Honduras vs. Singapore, Hong Kong, and the UAE is facile and offensive, because it mostly ignores the context.
- cynicalkane 15y agoIt's to a general idea exhibited by several people in this thread, including in a post you made. But were it a direct response to you I would have posted it as a direct response to you.
- civilian 15y ago> I never said anything about this charter city one way or another. Why didn't you? It's really weird that you have the top-rated comment in the thread, and gave a good perspective on the history of the region, yet you didn't actually say how your history lesson relates to Charter Cities.
- btipling 15y agoThis may be relevant: http://www.rlynn.co.uk/pages/article_intelligence/t4.asp http://www.rlynn.co.uk/pages/article_intelligence/t4.asp See criticism of the above link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lynn#Criticism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lynn#Criticism
- erik_nygren 15y agoI for one cannot believe that we (Sweden), passed on this opportunity.
- amalag 15y agoThe real way out of poverty is self sufficiency. This TED fellow is doing that in Africa, creating self-sufficient villages: http://workingvillages.org http://workingvillages.org
- Seich 15y agoI for one am glad to see Honduras on the news for something positive. In it's current state Honduras will continue to spiral down as everyone becomes poorer and the government becomes even less dependable. I think that actually getting giving free enterprise more freedom is the way to go to actually start generating wealth and stop poverty. Hopefully the idea will get somewhere and will continue to be supported by the governments to come.
- _delirium 15y agoDiscussion of a much more negative take on Romer's "charter city" idea from two years ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=850900 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=850900
- civilian 15y agoOkay! This NYtimes article is not a good introduction to the concept. Here's the main website: http://www.chartercities.org/ http://www.chartercities.org/ (with an FAQ! http://www.chartercities.org/faq/11/faq http://www.chartercities.org/faq/11/faq ) Here are the related TED talks: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/paul_romer.html http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/paul_romer.html from July 2009 http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/paul_romer_the_world_s_first_charter_city.html http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/paul_romer_the_world_s_firs... from 2011 To the people screaming "colonialism!", please read/watch these things first.
- malandrew 15y agoWhy would you choose a country to be the custodian of a city state instead of choosing a city or several cities to act as custodians? I hardly think that nations are fit to manage a special economic zone. Hong Kong, Singapore, NYC, San Francisco, etc. are better equipped to manage a special economic zone than England or Switzerland are.
- zader 15y agoCountries have military forces that can ensure the settlement of international disputes.
- malandrew 15y agoYeah, but from what I gathered from the article, the discussion going isn't about the custodianship of the entire country (although it's titled to give that idea), but the custodianship of a special economic zone governed according to Romer-istic policies and principles. Nicaragua could still serve as the protectorate of this SEZ.
- zader 14y agoYes, Nicaragua would be the protectorate, but the terms of the contract for the economic zone ultimately can only be enforced by someone with a large enough military to impose justice of the last resort -- or at least have the opportunity to do so. Cities can't do that. Legal clout comes from military cloud. Cities have no military clout. Therefore, they have no legal clout, except as provided for by some country.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- finalword 15y agome! me!
- RobPfeifer 15y agoI didn't see the original article in the Atlantic anywhere here which is where I heard about this first. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-politically-incorrect-guide-to-ending-poverty/8134/?single_page=true http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-poli... It's considerably more indepth and worth reading for a fuller view. I came away from it originally thinking it was worth a shot
- vorg 15y ago> The United Arab Emirates, Hong Kong and Singapore were able to build well-designed cities that housed and employed millions, in part by persuading foreigners to invest heavily. In part, yes. But rich "countries" generally exist as low-population centers keeping many people out with strong borders. The UAE keeps out the more numerous Yemenis next door, Hong Kong (all 7 million of them) the mainland Chinese, and Singapore (all 5m) the Malaysians and Indonesians. The richest countries, like Norway, Canada and Australia, are low populations with large natural resources.