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I don't think anyone is arguing that government is perfect, and you've shown some examples of it being imperfect for sure. In particular the restriction of hous

I don't think anyone is arguing that government is perfect, and you've shown some examples of it being imperfect for sure. In particular the restriction of housing by local governments is near and dear to my heart. But to call these things "the pricipal source of harm in our society"? If the sorts of things you listed are the greatest harms you've seen, I envy you. You've never seen a company dump pollution in a river near you, never been unable to breathe the air in your own home from local emissions, and must be too young to have been negatively affected by the housing crisis in 2008. By amount of harm caused, the two things that have caused the most damage to societies are individual persons seeking power for themselves (Putin etc), and organizations seeking to enrich themselves (companies behaving in ways that should've regulated). Those are orders of magnitude beyond everything you listed.

ETH_start 3y ago
The government not fulfilling its core responsibilities, of preventing pollution, assault, fraud and other private acts that victimize people, would allow for all sorts of private harms, it's true. But that is generally not a problem in the advanced economies. In those societies, the major problem is the government going beyond its core responsibilities and consequently causing most of the major problems facing society. This includes the 2008 financial crisis, which was entirely created by the government. The two largest actors in the residential mortgage market in the US are both government sponsored enterprises and collectively guarantee 50% of the market. In 1999 they moved into the subprime market in a big way: https://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/30/business/fannie-mae-eases-credit-to-aid-mortgage-lending.html https://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/30/business/fannie-mae-eases... The Federal Reserve did the rest, with its low interest rate policy that Krugman himself suggested be used to "create a housing bubble": https://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/02/opinion/dubya-s-double-dip.html https://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/02/opinion/dubya-s-double-di... >By amount of harm caused, the two things that have caused the most damage to societies are individual persons seeking power for themselves (Putin etc), The harm caused by government is primarily due to individuals seeking power for themselves. The harm caused by the Russian state is due to Putin and company's personal ambitions. The same applies to the harm caused by public sector unions. It is due to self-serving people working in government. Bad actors are every bit as capable of exploiting society through government as they are through the private sector. And the damage from the former has very few limits due to the state's monopoly on violence.
- doctorwho42 3y ago
  The advanced economies you so cherish require government oversight to get to where they are, otherwise you would have a country suffering from the tragedy of the commons a few orders of magnitude worse than anything seen today.
  - ETH_start 3y ago
    Those interventions I am referencing did not get the advanced economies to where they are. They are causing stagnation in housing, healthcare, etc. The US didn't become an advanced economy due to government restrictions — what you euphemize as "oversight" — on building houses, investing in companies and providing healthcare.
- vouwfietsman 3y ago
  Financial crisis was caused by: "widespread failures in financial regulation and supervision", including the Federal Reserve's failure to stem the tide of toxic assets "dramatic failures of corporate governance and risk management at many systemically important financial institutions" including too many financial firms acting recklessly and taking on too much risk. "a combination of excessive borrowing, risky investments, and lack of transparency" by financial institutions and by households that put the financial system on a collision course with crisis. ill preparation and inconsistent action by government and key policy makers lacking a full understanding of the financial system they oversaw that "added to the uncertainty and panic". a "systemic breakdown in accountability and ethics" at all levels Note how government is only named in failing to prevent and fix the issue, hence the root cause lying absolutely with corporate/private greed. Blaming government for not better regulating and preventing corporate/private greed is a weird criticism for government. It's like saying the government causes domestic violence by not putting a camera in everyone's house. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932008_financial_crisis#Causes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932008_financial_cr...
  - Ray20 3y ago
    For 20 years before the crisis, the American government promoted numerous policies to lower mortgage lending standards. The 2008 crisis is a natural price for such policies. "Corporate/private greed" - is an explanation aimed at children, I don’t understand how a mentally capable person can seriously listen to this BS.

ETH_start 3y ago

The government not fulfilling its core responsibilities, of preventing pollution, assault, fraud and other private acts that victimize people, would allow for all sorts of private harms, it's true. But that is generally not a problem in the advanced economies. In those societies, the major problem is the government going beyond its core responsibilities and consequently causing most of the major problems facing society. This includes the 2008 financial crisis, which was entirely created by the government. The two largest actors in the residential mortgage market in the US are both government sponsored enterprises and collectively guarantee 50% of the market. In 1999 they moved into the subprime market in a big way: https://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/30/business/fannie-mae-eases-credit-to-aid-mortgage-lending.html https://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/30/business/fannie-mae-eases... The Federal Reserve did the rest, with its low interest rate policy that Krugman himself suggested be used to "create a housing bubble": https://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/02/opinion/dubya-s-double-dip.html https://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/02/opinion/dubya-s-double-di... >By amount of harm caused, the two things that have caused the most damage to societies are individual persons seeking power for themselves (Putin etc), The harm caused by government is primarily due to individuals seeking power for themselves. The harm caused by the Russian state is due to Putin and company's personal ambitions. The same applies to the harm caused by public sector unions. It is due to self-serving people working in government. Bad actors are every bit as capable of exploiting society through government as they are through the private sector. And the damage from the former has very few limits due to the state's monopoly on violence.

doctorwho42 3y ago
The advanced economies you so cherish require government oversight to get to where they are, otherwise you would have a country suffering from the tragedy of the commons a few orders of magnitude worse than anything seen today.
- ETH_start 3y ago
  Those interventions I am referencing did not get the advanced economies to where they are. They are causing stagnation in housing, healthcare, etc. The US didn't become an advanced economy due to government restrictions — what you euphemize as "oversight" — on building houses, investing in companies and providing healthcare.
vouwfietsman 3y ago
Financial crisis was caused by: "widespread failures in financial regulation and supervision", including the Federal Reserve's failure to stem the tide of toxic assets "dramatic failures of corporate governance and risk management at many systemically important financial institutions" including too many financial firms acting recklessly and taking on too much risk. "a combination of excessive borrowing, risky investments, and lack of transparency" by financial institutions and by households that put the financial system on a collision course with crisis. ill preparation and inconsistent action by government and key policy makers lacking a full understanding of the financial system they oversaw that "added to the uncertainty and panic". a "systemic breakdown in accountability and ethics" at all levels Note how government is only named in failing to prevent and fix the issue, hence the root cause lying absolutely with corporate/private greed. Blaming government for not better regulating and preventing corporate/private greed is a weird criticism for government. It's like saying the government causes domestic violence by not putting a camera in everyone's house. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932008_financial_crisis#Causes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932008_financial_cr...
- Ray20 3y ago
  For 20 years before the crisis, the American government promoted numerous policies to lower mortgage lending standards. The 2008 crisis is a natural price for such policies. "Corporate/private greed" - is an explanation aimed at children, I don’t understand how a mentally capable person can seriously listen to this BS.