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The unrwa is an example of this. An agency created to help Palestinians ends up perpetuating the conflict by generating ever increasing numbers of refugees who

by ars 3y ago

The unrwa is an example of this. An agency created to help Palestinians ends up perpetuating the conflict by generating ever increasing numbers of refugees who can't work in their country of birth (Lebanon, Syria, etc) because they are denied citizenship. More reading: https://pij.org/articles/1168/the-discrimination-against-palestinian-refugees-living-in-lebanon https://pij.org/articles/1168/the-discrimination-against-pal...

crazygringo 3y ago
It's actually quite the opposite. There's a great recent analysis in the Economist that disagrees [1] -- it claims the problem isn't with the UNRWA at all (as Israel has been claiming), but rather with neighbor states actively blocking solutions that would therefore allow the UNRWA to disband. Key quotes: > Some Israeli officials have wanted to shut down UNRWA for years, accusing the agency of helping to prolong the conflict. They have seized the moment to press their case. For its supporters, meanwhile, the agency is above reproach, a group of selfless humanitarians doing vital work. As ever, life is more complicated than a morality play. The continued existence of UNRWA is a problem—but not for the reasons its critics think... > This is a problem—but not one of UNRWA's making. Blame instead the Arab states that have refused, for decades, to offer citizenship to the Palestinians in their midst. The 1.7m registered refugees in Gaza (or their ancestors) lived under Egyptian control for almost two decades until 1967. Instead of offering them rights, Egypt left them in squalor. Similarly: > In many ways, UNRWA was the government. Hamas officials have all but admitted this in interviews over the past few months. They said Hamas’s role was to build up its military capabilities, not to care for their people—they had do-gooders for that. Israel, too, relied on UNRWA to mitigate the consequences of the draconian blockade that it (along with Egypt) imposed on Gaza. Even today, as Israel tries to abolish UNRWA, it still relies on the agency to prevent mass starvation in Gaza. It's not the UNRWA that is trying to perpetuate itself. It is the actions of several countries that force the continued status of refugee on the Palestinians, Hamas not taking over basic governmental services, and Israel not providing humanitarian services in Gaza. The UNRWA is doing its best to do necessary humanitarian work when others aren't stepping up. The idea that UNRWA is the primary party responsible for perpetuating the situation, in order to therefore perpetuate its existence, couldn't be further from the truth. [1] https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2024/02/15/the-real-problem-with-the-uns-agency-for-palestinians https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2024/02/15/...
- ars 3y ago
  That's a creative way of explaining things, but if you were correct the unrwa would have long since disbanded and all the refugees handed over to the unhcr for integration into their country of birth. That this has not happened is the clearest proof against what you wrote. Tell me: If what you said is correct, why does the unrwa even still exist as a separate entity? The unrwa has a policy of always expanding the number of refugees, the unhcr has the opposite policy. Yes, it's true the Arab states have not made things easy, but the unrwa is not even trying - it's simply not part of the mandate. It is however the mandate of the unhcr. Do you think host countries want to admit refugees as citizens? They never do, but the unhcr manages to make things work. If the unrwa would try as hard they would cease to exist, which is a perfect example of this article.
  - crabmusket 3y ago
    > The unrwa has a policy of always expanding the number of refugees That's a very specific claim. Where can we find support for it?
    - ars 3y ago
      "UNRWA re-opened its new inscription process in 1992. Palestine refugees who were not registered in the early fifties can now apply for registration, provided that they approach any UNRWA registration office in person and are able to produce valid documentation proving their 1948 refugee status. Since 2006, husbands and descendants of registered refugee women, known as ‘married to non-refugee’ (MNR) family members, have also become eligible to be registered to receive UNRWA services." https://www.unrwa.org/what-we-do/eligibility-registration https://www.unrwa.org/what-we-do/eligibility-registration And this nice graph: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_number_of_Palestinian_refugees_as_defined_by_UNRWA_(1950_-_2008).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_number_of_Palestini... There is actually no mechanism to take someone off of UNRWA membership roles! Once a member, always a member, and so are all their kids. Forever.
      - crazygringo 3y ago
crabmusket 3y ago
From the conclusion of that article, emphasis mine: > The Palestinian refugees have been forced into abject poverty by the Lebanese government's denial of their rights to remunerated employment, social security, public health care, public education and property ownership. The argument that Palestinian integration into Lebanese society would either cause them to lose their right of return or would upset Lebanon's sectarian balance is just a pretext the Lebanese government uses to discriminate against the Palestinians, whom many Lebanese blame for causing the Lebanese civil war. Nowhere could I see how the UNRWA is "generating ever increasing numbers of refugees"? Do you have any other sources?
- ars 3y ago
  I replied to you in a different part of the thread. What you are missing in that conclusion is that the UNRWA has no mandate to even try to get their members full citizenship in Lebanon. It's easy to blame Lebanon, and you should, but UNRWA is utterly complicit be encouraging this status.
  - crabmusket 3y ago
    Right, I think I see the point you're getting at. The issues around the UNRWA are a lot more complex than what's presented in the article. I appreciate you bringing documentation to back up your posts when I've asked for it. I've realised from reading most of what you've brought so far that I'm not going to be able to develop a sensible opinion on the matter. It requires a lot more background and understanding of the region than I have. With that said I'm going to let this thread go. You may be right- I'm not convinced yet, but I think I've gone as far as I care to for the sake of an HN thread.

by ars 3y ago

crazygringo 3y ago

It's actually quite the opposite. There's a great recent analysis in the Economist that disagrees [1] -- it claims the problem isn't with the UNRWA at all (as Israel has been claiming), but rather with neighbor states actively blocking solutions that would therefore allow the UNRWA to disband. Key quotes: > Some Israeli officials have wanted to shut down UNRWA for years, accusing the agency of helping to prolong the conflict. They have seized the moment to press their case. For its supporters, meanwhile, the agency is above reproach, a group of selfless humanitarians doing vital work. As ever, life is more complicated than a morality play. The continued existence of UNRWA is a problem—but not for the reasons its critics think... > This is a problem—but not one of UNRWA's making. Blame instead the Arab states that have refused, for decades, to offer citizenship to the Palestinians in their midst. The 1.7m registered refugees in Gaza (or their ancestors) lived under Egyptian control for almost two decades until 1967. Instead of offering them rights, Egypt left them in squalor. Similarly: > In many ways, UNRWA was the government. Hamas officials have all but admitted this in interviews over the past few months. They said Hamas’s role was to build up its military capabilities, not to care for their people—they had do-gooders for that. Israel, too, relied on UNRWA to mitigate the consequences of the draconian blockade that it (along with Egypt) imposed on Gaza. Even today, as Israel tries to abolish UNRWA, it still relies on the agency to prevent mass starvation in Gaza. It's not the UNRWA that is trying to perpetuate itself. It is the actions of several countries that force the continued status of refugee on the Palestinians, Hamas not taking over basic governmental services, and Israel not providing humanitarian services in Gaza. The UNRWA is doing its best to do necessary humanitarian work when others aren't stepping up. The idea that UNRWA is the primary party responsible for perpetuating the situation, in order to therefore perpetuate its existence, couldn't be further from the truth. [1] https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2024/02/15/the-real-problem-with-the-uns-agency-for-palestinians https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2024/02/15/...

ars 3y ago
That's a creative way of explaining things, but if you were correct the unrwa would have long since disbanded and all the refugees handed over to the unhcr for integration into their country of birth. That this has not happened is the clearest proof against what you wrote. Tell me: If what you said is correct, why does the unrwa even still exist as a separate entity? The unrwa has a policy of always expanding the number of refugees, the unhcr has the opposite policy. Yes, it's true the Arab states have not made things easy, but the unrwa is not even trying - it's simply not part of the mandate. It is however the mandate of the unhcr. Do you think host countries want to admit refugees as citizens? They never do, but the unhcr manages to make things work. If the unrwa would try as hard they would cease to exist, which is a perfect example of this article.
- crabmusket 3y ago
  > The unrwa has a policy of always expanding the number of refugees That's a very specific claim. Where can we find support for it?
  - ars 3y ago
    "UNRWA re-opened its new inscription process in 1992. Palestine refugees who were not registered in the early fifties can now apply for registration, provided that they approach any UNRWA registration office in person and are able to produce valid documentation proving their 1948 refugee status. Since 2006, husbands and descendants of registered refugee women, known as ‘married to non-refugee’ (MNR) family members, have also become eligible to be registered to receive UNRWA services." https://www.unrwa.org/what-we-do/eligibility-registration https://www.unrwa.org/what-we-do/eligibility-registration And this nice graph: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_number_of_Palestinian_refugees_as_defined_by_UNRWA_(1950_-_2008).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_number_of_Palestini... There is actually no mechanism to take someone off of UNRWA membership roles! Once a member, always a member, and so are all their kids. Forever.
    - crazygringo 3y ago

crabmusket 3y ago

From the conclusion of that article, emphasis mine: > The Palestinian refugees have been forced into abject poverty by the Lebanese government's denial of their rights to remunerated employment, social security, public health care, public education and property ownership. The argument that Palestinian integration into Lebanese society would either cause them to lose their right of return or would upset Lebanon's sectarian balance is just a pretext the Lebanese government uses to discriminate against the Palestinians, whom many Lebanese blame for causing the Lebanese civil war. Nowhere could I see how the UNRWA is "generating ever increasing numbers of refugees"? Do you have any other sources?

ars 3y ago
I replied to you in a different part of the thread. What you are missing in that conclusion is that the UNRWA has no mandate to even try to get their members full citizenship in Lebanon. It's easy to blame Lebanon, and you should, but UNRWA is utterly complicit be encouraging this status.
- crabmusket 3y ago
  Right, I think I see the point you're getting at. The issues around the UNRWA are a lot more complex than what's presented in the article. I appreciate you bringing documentation to back up your posts when I've asked for it. I've realised from reading most of what you've brought so far that I'm not going to be able to develop a sensible opinion on the matter. It requires a lot more background and understanding of the region than I have. With that said I'm going to let this thread go. You may be right- I'm not convinced yet, but I think I've gone as far as I care to for the sake of an HN thread.