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Perhaps it’s easier to study isolated corporations and draw generalizations than it is to study a large interconnected bureaucratic blob? I don’t generally see

by dcow 3y ago

Perhaps it’s easier to study isolated corporations and draw generalizations than it is to study a large interconnected bureaucratic blob? I don’t generally see why problems of human nature wouldn’t present similarly across the public and private sector. If anything, finding a problem in supposedly efficient environments would imply the problem exists in less efficient environments.

crabmusket 3y ago
I'm sure it is. But surely there would be some examples that could have been cited? I'd suggest that in government, it's not so much human nature that's different as incentive structures. I don't mean to argue that government is all sunshine, roses and enlightened altruism. Just that even if Shirky's theorem is just as true of governments, this article doesn't support that conclusion, despite being written as if it does.
- dcow 3y ago
  I get what you’re saying and it’s a fair point (ack that it’d be nice to have a gov’t example) but I am just saying that I don’t think lack of citing a domain-specific case study implies a problem is irrelevant in a given domain. It’s rather strong of a statement to say that this article does not support the conclusion that government institutions or systems or entities are susceptible to the Shirky principle when it presents supporting evidence that is reasonably applicable to all types of institutions, systems, and entities.
  - crabmusket 3y ago
    My original post wasn't so much to suggest that the problem is irrelevant to government. I was just pointing out the interesting ideological maneuver: show evidence of a problem in companies, then ask the reader to imagine a problem in government. Kelly's post struck me similarly. > supporting evidence that is reasonably applicable to all types of institutions, systems, and entities I don't agree, but this verges into my own opinion lacking any supporting evidence. It just seems clear to me that publically funded institutions must have very different incentives in some areas than privately funded market institutions. Again, I'm not saying this effect doesn't exist in governments. But it does need demonstrating, if one wants to actually argue that.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> supposedly efficient environments would imply the problem exists in less efficient environments. Efficient at what? At making money. Private enterprise wants to sells you a product that causes you to need more of their product. They all want to be drug dealers - that's the perfect business model. Goldman Sachs analysts have asked whether curing patients is a sustainable business model. Tobacco companies, management consultants, Apple creating 'ecosystems' of products that only work with each other, walled gardens, planned obsolescence. It's all kind of the same thing. how does this translate into work of an average government department? I am sure you could make some parallels with clandestine activities by CIA, but outside of that - for transport, or healthcare?
- dcow 3y ago
  I think consumerism is orthogonal (but a fair subtopic to explore nonetheless). Not all corporate institutions are producers of consumer goods. Not are all consumer products designed (insidiously or not) for a recurring revenue stream. Furthermore efficiency usually refers to the cost required to achieve a desired outcome. Corporations are notoriously good and finding local cost minima in providing goods and services in ways that bureaucratic system aren’t. This isn’t controversial.
- ETH_start 3y ago
  And what are government bureaucracies efficient at? Manipulating the political system to get sweetheart collective bargaining agreements that minimize the accountability their members face while maximizing their compensation? "Investigation: New Records Reveal What It Takes to Be One of the 75 NYC Teachers Fired for Misconduct or Incompetence Between 2015 and 2016" source: https://www.the74million.org/article/investigation-nyc-tried-to-fire-154-teachers-for-incompetence-or-misconduct-75-were/ https://www.the74million.org/article/investigation-nyc-tried... New York: "114,041 Public Employees With $100,000+ Paychecks Cost Taxpayers $14.6 Billion" source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2020/09/24/why-new-york-city-is-in-trouble--114041-public-employees-with-100000-paychecks-cost-taxpayers-146-billion/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2020/09/24/why... "At $140,000 Per Year, Why Are Government Workers In California Paid Twice As Much As Private Sector Workers?" source: https://www.hoover.org/research/140000-year-why-are-government-workers-california-paid-twice-much-private-sector-workers https://www.hoover.org/research/140000-year-why-are-governme... And early retirement at 55.

by dcow 3y ago

crabmusket 3y ago

I'm sure it is. But surely there would be some examples that could have been cited? I'd suggest that in government, it's not so much human nature that's different as incentive structures. I don't mean to argue that government is all sunshine, roses and enlightened altruism. Just that even if Shirky's theorem is just as true of governments, this article doesn't support that conclusion, despite being written as if it does.

dcow 3y ago
I get what you’re saying and it’s a fair point (ack that it’d be nice to have a gov’t example) but I am just saying that I don’t think lack of citing a domain-specific case study implies a problem is irrelevant in a given domain. It’s rather strong of a statement to say that this article does not support the conclusion that government institutions or systems or entities are susceptible to the Shirky principle when it presents supporting evidence that is reasonably applicable to all types of institutions, systems, and entities.
- crabmusket 3y ago
  My original post wasn't so much to suggest that the problem is irrelevant to government. I was just pointing out the interesting ideological maneuver: show evidence of a problem in companies, then ask the reader to imagine a problem in government. Kelly's post struck me similarly. > supporting evidence that is reasonably applicable to all types of institutions, systems, and entities I don't agree, but this verges into my own opinion lacking any supporting evidence. It just seems clear to me that publically funded institutions must have very different incentives in some areas than privately funded market institutions. Again, I'm not saying this effect doesn't exist in governments. But it does need demonstrating, if one wants to actually argue that.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

> supposedly efficient environments would imply the problem exists in less efficient environments. Efficient at what? At making money. Private enterprise wants to sells you a product that causes you to need more of their product. They all want to be drug dealers - that's the perfect business model. Goldman Sachs analysts have asked whether curing patients is a sustainable business model. Tobacco companies, management consultants, Apple creating 'ecosystems' of products that only work with each other, walled gardens, planned obsolescence. It's all kind of the same thing. how does this translate into work of an average government department? I am sure you could make some parallels with clandestine activities by CIA, but outside of that - for transport, or healthcare?

dcow 3y ago
I think consumerism is orthogonal (but a fair subtopic to explore nonetheless). Not all corporate institutions are producers of consumer goods. Not are all consumer products designed (insidiously or not) for a recurring revenue stream. Furthermore efficiency usually refers to the cost required to achieve a desired outcome. Corporations are notoriously good and finding local cost minima in providing goods and services in ways that bureaucratic system aren’t. This isn’t controversial.
ETH_start 3y ago
And what are government bureaucracies efficient at? Manipulating the political system to get sweetheart collective bargaining agreements that minimize the accountability their members face while maximizing their compensation? "Investigation: New Records Reveal What It Takes to Be One of the 75 NYC Teachers Fired for Misconduct or Incompetence Between 2015 and 2016" source: https://www.the74million.org/article/investigation-nyc-tried-to-fire-154-teachers-for-incompetence-or-misconduct-75-were/ https://www.the74million.org/article/investigation-nyc-tried... New York: "114,041 Public Employees With $100,000+ Paychecks Cost Taxpayers $14.6 Billion" source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2020/09/24/why-new-york-city-is-in-trouble--114041-public-employees-with-100000-paychecks-cost-taxpayers-146-billion/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2020/09/24/why... "At $140,000 Per Year, Why Are Government Workers In California Paid Twice As Much As Private Sector Workers?" source: https://www.hoover.org/research/140000-year-why-are-government-workers-california-paid-twice-much-private-sector-workers https://www.hoover.org/research/140000-year-why-are-governme... And early retirement at 55.