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The anthem uncoupled from what it stands for may seem strange, which is why it’s so important to remember the lives of the fathers, brothers, and sons sacrifice

The anthem uncoupled from what it stands for may seem strange, which is why it’s so important to remember the lives of the fathers, brothers, and sons sacrificed at Fort McHenry holding up the flag through the night, and all the lives lost since then holding up the foundations of freedom and our way of life. If you’re living in America enjoying the (ever shrinking) bounty of liberties we have, it’s good and healthy for yourself and for the country to reflect on that every now and then, and kids should absolutely have a love of their country (and thus their fellow countrymen) reinforced daily. I think falling away from a national identity hurts everyone.

dylan604 3y ago
yeah, no. not for me. just reading what you've written gives me flashbacks to all of those uncomfortable moments of having to perform some oath and pledge my allegiance to something i did not choose. nobody chooses where they are born. why would someone else expect they'd pledge their fealty to something they didn't choose to be apart of just because of their place of birth? to me, it's just weird that anyone would pledge their blind loyalty to something that doesn't give a damn about them
- kbos87 3y ago
  I've always thought of the national anthem as more of a collective show of appreciation for the good parts of the US, which is probably why I've always been OK with it. The pledge of allegiance, on the other hand, feels like a forced statement of blind loyalty. Gives me the same ick I get whenever I've been at some sort of rally or protest when they try to hype up a crowd. I've never been to church but I'd imagine it's the same thing.
- networkchad 3y ago
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- dctoedt 3y ago
  > all of those uncomfortable moments of having to perform some oath and pledge my allegiance ... FWIW, I seldom if ever say the Pledge of Allegiance — I took the oath to support and defend the Constitution many years ago when I joined the Navy, and then again as a lawyer; I figure that ought to be plenty ....
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Yeah, luckily, that seems to have stopped for the most part after grade school. I have been to a couple of events as an adult that did that, and it felt very bizarre. My "favorite" part is that they are having kids recite a pledge knowing full well that most of them have no understanding to what it actually means. Taking a pledge should be one of those "I, state your name, of sound mind and body, pledge allegiance..." It's just one of those things that is so illogical to me that I don't get how it's not for everyone else
    - mtrower 3y ago
      I would guess that having it drilled in from childhood probably has something to do with it. By taking issue with it, you're going against the flow and people in general seem to be uncomfortable with that sort of thing. It also seems to me, that people tend to associate it with something other than the actual words that are being spoken.
qotgalaxy 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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mtrower 3y ago
That may be true, and it may be of personal value to pursue this for yourself. That's different from socially badgering others into it at group events.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- GiorgioG 3y ago
  If it bothers you so much don’t go to these events.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Someone's not allowed to go to a sporting event because you say so? That's a load of crap. I'll go to whatever event I want. If they have one of these dear leader performances, I just stand there thinking about whatever is on my mind. If you like it, you can sing your little heart out. But I'm not going to not go to something I enjoy because you might get offended at my non-participation in your cult-like ritual
    - jvanderbot 3y ago
      How did we jump from "this is not mandatory" to "you're not allowed"
      - dylan604 3y ago
        Because the person suggested that I not go to the event. Also, as "not mandatory", have you ever chosen to remain seated and experienced the reaction from those around you? You'll definitely get the feeling "not mandatory" is a very much incorrect description.
        jvanderbot 3y ago
        I'll quote myself from another comment: > haven't sung a hymn, pledge or anthem since I was 11 or so. I just stand there and watch, be it church, baseball, hockey, whatever. 32 years and nothing bad has happened yet. (Hooray freedom?). I don't believe there is any pressure whatsoever. YMMV, but I do just stand up and not sing. It's not the end of the world. And some people always keep their hand down, instead of over heart. Again, I'm really not experiencing difficulties here, but I respect that there might be other factors. Like, do you live in the deep south?
deleted 3y ago
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rayiner 3y ago
> I think falling away from a national identity hurts everyone. I agree but it’s the basic defect at the heart of America. It’s a country founded by anti-social individualists, replenished by waves and waves of the sort of anti-social people who would leave their kin and move to the other side of the world. Christianity was the only thing keeping the country from declining into pure atomized individualism, and the hold of that is on the verge of collapsing.
- tptacek 3y ago
  From where are you getting this idea that America was founded by "anti-social individualists"? What I was taught is that it was founded by people with immense faith in innate goodness of people and the rightness of governance by the people.
  - cjbgkagh 3y ago
    There may be a conflation of the founding fathers with the initial stock of pilgrims which is understandable given the ambiguity of the term ‘founded’. I guess the pilgrims would be considered anti-social as they didn’t ’go along to get along’ but AFAIK powerful trade guilds dominated a large part of the economic private life and the people persecuted/excluded from them may not have had much choice in the matter.
romafirst3 3y ago
Don’t you guys also do a pledge of allegiance and other weird stuff? Also, in most every other country, the national anthem is only ever sung when the country is playing an outside country not for internal competition.
- labster 3y ago
  Yes we do a pledge of allegiance every day at school, and many government meetings and social club meetings. A lot of that stuff is early adopter weirdness. You see, other nation states have things like a historical culture or common language to unite them, but the US had to invent a national identity out of whole cloth when no other nation was doing nationalism yet. We need rituals to affirm that we are the members of the in-group.

dylan604 3y ago

yeah, no. not for me. just reading what you've written gives me flashbacks to all of those uncomfortable moments of having to perform some oath and pledge my allegiance to something i did not choose. nobody chooses where they are born. why would someone else expect they'd pledge their fealty to something they didn't choose to be apart of just because of their place of birth? to me, it's just weird that anyone would pledge their blind loyalty to something that doesn't give a damn about them

kbos87 3y ago
I've always thought of the national anthem as more of a collective show of appreciation for the good parts of the US, which is probably why I've always been OK with it. The pledge of allegiance, on the other hand, feels like a forced statement of blind loyalty. Gives me the same ick I get whenever I've been at some sort of rally or protest when they try to hype up a crowd. I've never been to church but I'd imagine it's the same thing.
networkchad 3y ago
[dead]
dctoedt 3y ago
> all of those uncomfortable moments of having to perform some oath and pledge my allegiance ... FWIW, I seldom if ever say the Pledge of Allegiance — I took the oath to support and defend the Constitution many years ago when I joined the Navy, and then again as a lawyer; I figure that ought to be plenty ....
- dylan604 3y ago
  Yeah, luckily, that seems to have stopped for the most part after grade school. I have been to a couple of events as an adult that did that, and it felt very bizarre. My "favorite" part is that they are having kids recite a pledge knowing full well that most of them have no understanding to what it actually means. Taking a pledge should be one of those "I, state your name, of sound mind and body, pledge allegiance..." It's just one of those things that is so illogical to me that I don't get how it's not for everyone else
  - mtrower 3y ago
    I would guess that having it drilled in from childhood probably has something to do with it. By taking issue with it, you're going against the flow and people in general seem to be uncomfortable with that sort of thing. It also seems to me, that people tend to associate it with something other than the actual words that are being spoken.

qotgalaxy 3y ago

[dead]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mtrower 3y ago

That may be true, and it may be of personal value to pursue this for yourself. That's different from socially badgering others into it at group events.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
GiorgioG 3y ago
If it bothers you so much don’t go to these events.
- dylan604 3y ago
  Someone's not allowed to go to a sporting event because you say so? That's a load of crap. I'll go to whatever event I want. If they have one of these dear leader performances, I just stand there thinking about whatever is on my mind. If you like it, you can sing your little heart out. But I'm not going to not go to something I enjoy because you might get offended at my non-participation in your cult-like ritual
  - jvanderbot 3y ago
    How did we jump from "this is not mandatory" to "you're not allowed"
    - dylan604 3y ago
      Because the person suggested that I not go to the event. Also, as "not mandatory", have you ever chosen to remain seated and experienced the reaction from those around you? You'll definitely get the feeling "not mandatory" is a very much incorrect description.
      - jvanderbot 3y ago
        I'll quote myself from another comment: > haven't sung a hymn, pledge or anthem since I was 11 or so. I just stand there and watch, be it church, baseball, hockey, whatever. 32 years and nothing bad has happened yet. (Hooray freedom?). I don't believe there is any pressure whatsoever. YMMV, but I do just stand up and not sing. It's not the end of the world. And some people always keep their hand down, instead of over heart. Again, I'm really not experiencing difficulties here, but I respect that there might be other factors. Like, do you live in the deep south?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rayiner 3y ago

> I think falling away from a national identity hurts everyone. I agree but it’s the basic defect at the heart of America. It’s a country founded by anti-social individualists, replenished by waves and waves of the sort of anti-social people who would leave their kin and move to the other side of the world. Christianity was the only thing keeping the country from declining into pure atomized individualism, and the hold of that is on the verge of collapsing.

tptacek 3y ago
From where are you getting this idea that America was founded by "anti-social individualists"? What I was taught is that it was founded by people with immense faith in innate goodness of people and the rightness of governance by the people.
- cjbgkagh 3y ago
  There may be a conflation of the founding fathers with the initial stock of pilgrims which is understandable given the ambiguity of the term ‘founded’. I guess the pilgrims would be considered anti-social as they didn’t ’go along to get along’ but AFAIK powerful trade guilds dominated a large part of the economic private life and the people persecuted/excluded from them may not have had much choice in the matter.

romafirst3 3y ago

Don’t you guys also do a pledge of allegiance and other weird stuff? Also, in most every other country, the national anthem is only ever sung when the country is playing an outside country not for internal competition.

labster 3y ago
Yes we do a pledge of allegiance every day at school, and many government meetings and social club meetings. A lot of that stuff is early adopter weirdness. You see, other nation states have things like a historical culture or common language to unite them, but the US had to invent a national identity out of whole cloth when no other nation was doing nationalism yet. We need rituals to affirm that we are the members of the in-group.