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Plastic experts say recycling is a scam. Should we even do it anymore?
- klysm 3y agoPlastic recycling isn't the only kind of recycling...
- asystole 3y agoSure, but it's pretty obvious that plastic experts would be talking about plastic recycling in particular.
- infecto 3y agoYes but I would guess plastic makes up the majority of items. Paper/cardboard too which is also a scam to recycle in most systems.
- klysm 3y agoPerhaps in a MRF context, but there's all kinds of recycling going on that isn't MRF.
- CatWChainsaw 3y agoI read a Pocket story recently about cartels of cardboard thieves. Just the concept itself was wild.
- aspenmayer 3y agoDiversion and repurposing on an individual and industrial scale also happens with milk crates and especially with wooden pallets, and probably also with plastic pallets.
- CatWChainsaw 3y agoNo doubt. I was mystified by the repurposing being so lucrative as to encourage full blown cartels.
- Log_out_ 3y agoI dread what other obsessive compulsive framework will replace it once it's gone to keep the consumer self inquisition busy. I vote for it staying.. The horror you know..
- bertil 3y agoYou can very easily define symbols that match what is on collection boxes. That’s not difficult: the current standard is a series of numbers with three chasing arrows. Obviously, you want to challenge the arrows because they were intentionally picked to look like the recycling logo, but if you need a complex system (and we don’t) numbers are fine. A better system is to consign containers and have the collection machine do the sorting.
- mouse_ 3y agoRecycling is an industry psyop to convince the public that plastic can be consumed ethically and sustainably. Unless we ban disposable plastics altogether, the problem will only get worse. Plastic has only been around for 100 years; imagine just how bad things will be in 500.
- city41 3y agoThey even designed their plastic type symbol to look like the recycle symbol, even though most plastics can't be recycled. > The “chasing arrows” symbol we see on plastic containers and products does not necessarily mean the product is recyclable. https://www.acmeplastics.com/content/your-guide-to-plastic-recycling-symbols/ https://www.acmeplastics.com/content/your-guide-to-plastic-r...
- travisgriggs 3y agoIt's mind boggling to ponder a world without any plastic products though, isn't it? I work in ag irrigation, and the degree to which plastic has taken over irrigation implements in the last 20+ years is mind boggling. I sometimes wonder what it would mean for our company and industry in general if plastic suddenly became toxic.
- MPSimmons 3y agoIf plastic becomes toxic, it won't _become toxic_, it will become recognized as toxic, which would mean that it's toxic right now, and while that's true for some plastics, it doesn't seem to be true for the majority of food-safe plastics in use. I think it's more likely that there's some kind of subtle effect from the introduction of microplastics into the ecosystem that we haven't identified yet, but as of right now, there's no conclusive evidence that I'm aware of that microplastics are toxic, only that sufficient accumulation of them can impair biological function, just the same as any contaminant would.
- epistasis 3y agoAgree 99%, but as plastics break down there's a chance that they do become toxic. For example, a chemical used in tires is extremely toxic to salmon, but only after breaking down a bit: https://www.science.org/content/article/common-tire-chemical-implicated-mysterious-deaths-risk-salmon https://www.science.org/content/article/common-tire-chemical...
- xnx 3y agoIs cost what prevents more things from being packaged in aluminum?
- zer00eyz 3y agoAluminum also gets lined in plastic so... Glass is the idea when we're talking about liquids.
- xnx 3y agoGlass has a lot of good characteristics (clear, impervious to most contents), but is heavy , fragile, (both of which make transportation expensive) and limited recyclability.
- bertil 3y agoAluminum isn’t transparent and can’t handle certain chemicals, but it’s not that expensive—if it’s recycled consistently. It’s routinely replaced by steel for, say, cans because that ends up being cheaper (with thinner walls), but steel is also cheaply and effectively recycled. It also often has a thin plastic layer when holding acids (like Coca-Cola), so it’s not a complete replacement.
- ChainOfFools 3y ago> Aluminum isn’t transparent "aye, how quaint"
- cassepipe 3y agoIsn't it the case that aluminum, while easy to recycle, it's quite energy intensive to do so ?
- bryanlarsen 3y agoOne of the big problems with plastic recycling is that people read "plastic recycling is a scam" but internalize "recycling is a scam". Some types of recycling are massively successful and efficient, like the recycling of vehicle lead acid batteries or post industrial steel recycling.
- declan_roberts 3y agoYou don’t need to put metals in the recycling (at least not ferrous ones) because they pick those out of the trash anyway. They just charge you extra to feel good about it.
- Ma8ee 3y agoWhy do you think so?
- asimovfan 3y agoProbably because its easy to do with a magnet so someone must be doing it already
- pimlottc 3y agoAluminum is not magnetic
- computerfriend 3y ago> (at least not ferrous ones)
- ponderings 3y agoEddy Current Separators https://www.recyclingtoday.com/article/magnetic-equipment-guide----eddy-current-separators/ https://www.recyclingtoday.com/article/magnetic-equipment-gu...
- Ma8ee 3y ago
- bertil 3y agoIf we can, we should, but you probably want to consider most plastic wrappers as temporally displaced fossil fuel that will be burned for heat in a specialized kiln. The logo that designates plastic types should be changed to match local conditions, from the three circling arrows to a flame—with the same numbers. I believe that using those logos requires a license, but I doubt that it pays for the recycling of most of it. Most of it isn’t recycled anyway. You definitely want garbage collection and processing to be paid for by companies printing that logo. We definitely should include the cost of extracting and storing or processing carbon in there, too. That might convince people to use paper bags or only certain types of plastic.
- SAI_Peregrinus 3y agoThe logo with 3 arrows going around a triangle and a number inside is a resin identification number (RIN), and has no relation to the recycling symbol (3 arrows going around a triangle with nothing inside) other than the arrows. It's meant to be deliberately confusing, to trick people into buying things made with unrecyclable plastics. Generally only resins 1 & 2 can be economically recycled, the rest get burned.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- nimbius 3y agothinking about how this works, it just astounds me how clever and creative it is from the industry standpoint. capture a word, then redefine it to conform to an existing effort. Modern recycling transfers plastic waste away from capitalisms best consumers (the west) and burdens it upon its least visible (the third world.) Its like a black hole for all the immediate problems of the indelible hell you've created. in electronics recycling has an added bonus for elites as it generates scavenging jobs for children and adults alike, further cementing their class status through subsistence poverty. the cult of recycling will continue just as long it continues to ensure plastic detritus doesnt impinge upon elites, and this is evidenced by things like plastic bag bans which exist predominantly in affluent western cities. Once no one wanted to "recycle" the bags anymore, (or consumers couldnt be counted on to behave properly and accept "recycling") the bags were just banned or taxed. perhaps the most damning impact to recycling in the 21st century has been Chinas realization that it is a garbage shipping scheme and promptly banning waste import from the west. That certainly sent "recyclers" scrambling for a new "partner" for a time. the only way to stop "recycling" is to do something akin to that which Germany does: emburden the capitalist with their waste and allow shoppers to return the various detritus directly to them. we do this to a limited extent in the USA, forcing electronics stores and auto repair shops to accept waste oils, batteries, and electronics, but it pales in contrast to what some european countries force their profiteers to acquiesce.
- hn72774 3y agoSingle use plastic bags were banned here. Two things happened as a result - the plastic thickness was increased so they can call them reusable instead of single use, and stores started charging for them. Instead of reducing plastic waste it had the opposite effect.
- cfr2023 3y agoIs there no value in merely separating and gathering this material, even if it's all dumped in a "plastics only" landfill, as opposed to one containing other types of trash? Isn't keeping different types of waste sorted inherently useful in other ways?
- Arn_Thor 3y agoI suspect you’re right. From my hometown’s local waste authority: After [we have] collected the waste from your bin, the purple dotted bag [with plastic waste] is sent on for collection and pressing before being transported to large sorting facilities in Northern Germany and other places in Europe. Here, 75% of the content in the purple dotted bag (figures from 2019) is recycled, and the remaining waste (often residual waste and food waste that has been incorrectly sorted) is utilized for energy. And more detail: This is how household plastic is recycled: Collected plastic packaging is first finely sorted in Germany, before moving on to recyclers in the same country or elsewhere in Europe. We differentiate between the recycling of household plastic, which is the plastic you sort at home, and plastic packaging from businesses. - The plastic packaging you sort at home is collected by the municipality or an inter-municipal waste company. They press the plastic together into large bales. - Plastretur transports the plastic to a sorting facility. - At the sorting facility, incorrect sorting and contaminants are removed. This can include paper and metal, or other items that ended up in the wrong collection at your home. - Additionally, the plastic is sorted into different qualities, and non-recyclable packaging is removed. The sorting facilities classify the plastic into several plastic qualities such as PP, LDPE, HDPE, PET before it is transported to a recycling plant. - At the recycling plant, the plastic is washed. This process also removes labels and glue. - Then it is ground and melted into small beads, called pellets. Pellets are a raw material that can be used to make new products from recycled plastic.
- bombcar 3y ago> remaining waste is used for energy This really is the key - if people weren't so scared of incinerators, the "landfill" problem would be basically solved.
- CatWChainsaw 3y agoIf it's thrown in a landfill then that defaults into letting it decompose in some unknown way for thousands of years. If it's stored and we find a way to break down or reuse plastic, it's still around. We do need to cut down on everything "disposable" though. The planet cycles are circles not lines, there is no "away", what you mistreat will come back to hurt you later, line cannot go up forever, no infinite growth on a finite planet. These are lessons the smartest guys in the room refuse to learn because their ego has convinced them that human ingenuity is superior to every single problem that human ingenuity causes.
- thetallguyyy 3y agoREDUCE. REUSE. Recycle.
- SomeoneFromCA 3y agoI call it bullshit. PET used in plastic bottles can easily be depolymerized or even used as fuel. I live in a poor ex-USSR republic, and plastic recycling is a popular business; it were a scam no one would do that, as government neither mandate nor sponsor recycling.
- isthispermanent 3y agoWhat country do you live in if you don’t mind me asking?
- SomeoneFromCA 3y agomind
- zer00eyz 3y agoBottles are one thing.. I just ate a package of crackers. Plastic. I ordered a product from amazon, retail packed in plastic and cardboard. I got an amp, the box liner, plastic. The amazon box, had plastic bubbles in it. I'm willing to bet most oof that ends up in a land fill and not recycled here in the states.
- ofrzeta 3y agoContains a lot of microplastic, too: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/plastic-particles-bottled-water https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/plastic...
- AceLewis 3y agoI think when people call it a scam they are referring to the idea that it is marketed as a way that plastic can be green and good for the environment because it can be recycled. It may be profitable to be used as fuel but it is not green. Another thing in the article is richer countries with higher environmental regulations just export to poor countries where the pollution is less regulated. Just exporting the problem to you. I have been to Kyrgyzstan most their electric is hydroelectric but in general it seemed their environmental regulations were lacking especially in the villages they just had heaps of waste, in the past it would be mostly comparable but lots of single use plastic means the waste is permanent.
- zer00eyz 3y agoCandybars Im old enough to remember foil and paper wrappers. Im old enough to remember wax paper. It all comes in plastic now. Get a bag and put every piece of plastic for your week in it. Bottles, wrappers... bring it all home. The ammount of it is obscene.
- machine_coffee 3y agoWe have a separate service that we pay for to recycle our plastic, and do exactly that; separate out all plastic and put in these bags - and yes, agreed, the amount of plastic is sometimes unbelievable. Last night I cooked 2 packets of fresh Udon noodles. Each packet contained 2 plastics bags of vacuum packed noodles, so in total I had 6 separate plastic bags to throw away, for a total of 200g of noodles.
- ofrzeta 3y agoIt's a favourite German pastime to drive to the Wertstoffhof (recycling centre) in your car to drop off the collected plastic for recycling. Now there are some bins where people can put some specific plastics like yoghurt cups (mostly cleaned by people, probably with a lot of hot water). Some are plastic foils with aluminium, styrofoam but most of it goes into the "mixed plastic" bins. There's all kind of stuff in it, some of it dirty. Who in their right mind would think that any of this mixed plastic stuff could be recycled?
- cassepipe 3y agoIsn't it ironic that you are making a specific trip in a one ton metal box that burns gas in order to recycle plastic that can't realistically be recycled ?
- tamimio 3y agoPlastic is always at the center of these hot discussions, however, is there any reliable and practical replacement to it? Any new material that’s safe -glass is not even safe apparently with microplastics (1) and to the environment (2)-,cheap, and durable enough -forget about paper-based like straws? (1) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29803096/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29803096/ (2) https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230427-glass-or-plastic-which-is-better-for-the-environment https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230427-glass-or-plastic...
- araes 3y agoI could read this report, or I could go and look at the EPA's original document on recycling that they're keying off of. https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/documents/2018_tables_and_figures.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/documents/20... I could phrase this as "never above 9.0%" or I could look at pg 6, Table 2. Materials Recycled and see: 1960 1970 1980 1990 2000 2005 2010 2015 2017 2018 Plastics Neg. Neg. 0.3% 2.2% 5.8% 6.1% 8.0% 9.0% 8.5% 8.5% That's not a bad trend. In fact, here's the standard business Excel fit chart that says in 2050 I expect that recycling will have reached 22%. Simple Excel fit of dots: https://i.imgur.com/4txVyqr.png https://i.imgur.com/4txVyqr.png If this was a business speak chart about market dominance, business folks would be happy. It's mostly second order upward. Little bit of a slowdown in the last 2 years, yet 0 to 9% of the market.
- steve76 3y ago[dead]
- ChrisArchitect 3y agoRelated, lots of discussion last week: Plastics producers deceived public about recycling, report reveals https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39387387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39387387
- drewcoo 3y agoThe title is about recycling but the article is about the need to cut plastic production. The bogeymen are "plastic production" and "companies." No names. No substantive changes suggested. Toothless virtue signaling.
- tmaly 3y agoI would like to see other incentives on the other end. Make consumer packaging rely less on plastics. Put some effort into Material design. We do have an island of plastic larger than France floating in the Pacific ocean.
- JeongMinjun 3y ago[dead]