7 ms·

The ultimate red pill in my life has been working with Harvard grads, and being shocked at how mediocre they are.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rdl 3y ago
The top 25% of Harvard grads are impressive. The bottom 25% are not. My experience has been that even the lower half of Waterloo grads, in CS, are solid to good. I'd probably take the 20th percentile Waterloo grad over the 20th percentile Harvard grad absent other information.
- ldjkfkdsjnv 3y ago
  A well known VC told me that 1/20 is absolutely exceptional. And so they always bet on Harvard grads, in hopes they are backing one of those 1/20.
- throwaway13337 3y ago
  Naturally, the majority of these students are benefiting from the inability to tell them apart. Alternatives like the Thiel Fellowship might change this. The better students might choose these options instead. This could break down traditional academia and legacy systems, leading to a more efficient society.
  - text0404 3y ago
    so we just swap out a Harvard education for the handpicked acolytes of a single billionaire? also, have we considered that optimizing for efficiency is not the best way to structure a society?
  - CPLX 3y ago
    > leading to a more efficient society Efficient at what? Producing more highly-resourced sociopaths who share Peter Theil's values?
    - throwaway13337 3y ago
      The parent comment was on how impressive a portion of the graduates were. This presumes the context of able to be successful in business. You may not agree with the values of Peter (I know I don't agree with all of them), but the graduates are often selected for being effective at business. If those kinds of fellowships provide a better signal, then they would be more efficient by definition. Your comment, though, seems to come from a place of political indignation. I hope you can reflect on how those kinds of comments reflect on your own values.
      - CPLX 3y ago
        Of course they represent my own values. Peter Thiel’s approach to business is based on creating monopoly conditions, extracting maximum value from working people, and creating widespread social misery that he doesn’t have to personally experience due to his wealth. Is there a some other way to evaluate a normative discussion of social, business, and educational policy than by bringing values to bear?
        throwaway13337 3y ago
        You're unfortunately correct that value creation and extraction are not always hand in hand. I also agree that monopoly conditions are bad and a huge problem right now. So probably our values align here. To take Thiel's fellowship charitably, though, these people are both creating and extracting value. And programs like these might have a better track record of identifying, and accelerating these creators that somehow give the market what it wants. Markets aren't perfect but I'm not aware of a better system. I am not sure Thiel's intention about talking so openly about monopoly, but I feel that effects that might align with your values are: 1. That people (hopefully regulators) are more aware of the value extracting monopolies. I know Thiel has talked very publicly against a few tech giants he doesn't like. 2. That people (hopefully creators) think more about creating tiny monopolies. The most common problem I see business creators make is that they attack a red ocean. So maybe he calls them monopolies, but I just use the term 'niche'. They're certainly a more likely way to succeed and they create value for other people. Anyway, Thiel is also playing political games of 'us versus them' and trying not to look charitably on the others. I felt like your comment continued that sort of damaging perspective. I don't think only sociopaths are succeeding - in fact, our world progress is proof that cooperation and trust work very well even against cynics that exploit it, overall. I also think that most people (including those that are vocal) really want good things for humanity. They might even have similar thoughts on how to get there. But the way they talk about it and their identity group seems to get in the way. We just get stuck in narratives that focus on differences. When we do that, we don't move the other party to our side, they just dig their heels in. And we probably agree with them much more than we think.
- insane_dreamer 3y ago
  That's not necessarily surprising; Waterloo is known for being very strong in CS, Harvard not necessarily. I'd take a CMU or Harvey Mudd CS grad over a Harvard one any day.
SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
I’ll face issue for this, because I’m sure the same people I’m about to complain about post here. I went to a google campus for an automotive liaison trip when working at a BIG3… some smart people for sure, but a lot of kids that could barely tie their pointy elf shoes let alone had any common sense about things outside of programming. Like… You are working on an automotive program and you have no idea which parts under the painted part are suspension? You don’t know what the transmission actually does? Guys, I just need this car backed out and the other one brought in, this isn’t concerning, you and you, swap these. Yes, there is a reason that cars have so many parts. … it was really eye opening. Good programmers, but holy hell I wouldn’t want to be stuck on an island with any of them.
- linehedonist 3y ago
  Lots of people have no interest in cars, just like lots of people have no interest in computers. Not sure that says anything about the people’s intelligence. Plus on a desert island you’ll probably have bigger problems than what a transmission does.
  - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
    Ok. If you want to excuse one example that’s fine. I was there, and those people put all their points into programming.
CPLX 3y ago
Now you're ready for the next observation. Which is to really understand the mentality of people from those institutions. Imagine if you took these two premises as true: 1) Harvard is the most selective and high level educational institution in the world, it's full of the absolute smartest people alive. That's how I ended up here. 2) Now that I am actually here, it appears that there's a bunch of people at Harvard that honestly aren't all that bright. You then have to pick from one of two obvious conclusions: A) Maybe Harvard actually isn't full of the smartest people in the world. B) Wow, since we know the dumbest person at Harvard is smarter than the smartest person at a state school, people who went to state school must be total fucking idiots. Guess which worldview your average Harvard student tends to gravitate towards?
- ldjkfkdsjnv 3y ago
  Yeah, a lot of them also have a really strong network of ivy league grads, and really only associate in those circles. What happens is they develop all sorts of ideas about "outsiders". You see this in NYC a lot. The network is where alot of the success comes from. I'm also not doubting that many Harvard students are exceptional students
demondemidi 3y ago
That’s what the legacy rulings are about. But there will always be stupid rich failsons and faildaughters that magically find an acceptance letter and a new facility with their last name on it.
silverquiet 3y ago
I have to say that the last decade or so of my life has been one confirmation after another that the parable of “The Emperor’s New Clothes” is about the most accurate bit of folk sociological wisdom that exists.
consumer451 3y ago
Sounds like a great reason to end legacy admissions.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rdl 3y ago

The top 25% of Harvard grads are impressive. The bottom 25% are not. My experience has been that even the lower half of Waterloo grads, in CS, are solid to good. I'd probably take the 20th percentile Waterloo grad over the 20th percentile Harvard grad absent other information.

ldjkfkdsjnv 3y ago
A well known VC told me that 1/20 is absolutely exceptional. And so they always bet on Harvard grads, in hopes they are backing one of those 1/20.
throwaway13337 3y ago
Naturally, the majority of these students are benefiting from the inability to tell them apart. Alternatives like the Thiel Fellowship might change this. The better students might choose these options instead. This could break down traditional academia and legacy systems, leading to a more efficient society.
- text0404 3y ago
  so we just swap out a Harvard education for the handpicked acolytes of a single billionaire? also, have we considered that optimizing for efficiency is not the best way to structure a society?
- CPLX 3y ago
  > leading to a more efficient society Efficient at what? Producing more highly-resourced sociopaths who share Peter Theil's values?
  - throwaway13337 3y ago
    The parent comment was on how impressive a portion of the graduates were. This presumes the context of able to be successful in business. You may not agree with the values of Peter (I know I don't agree with all of them), but the graduates are often selected for being effective at business. If those kinds of fellowships provide a better signal, then they would be more efficient by definition. Your comment, though, seems to come from a place of political indignation. I hope you can reflect on how those kinds of comments reflect on your own values.
    - CPLX 3y ago
      Of course they represent my own values. Peter Thiel’s approach to business is based on creating monopoly conditions, extracting maximum value from working people, and creating widespread social misery that he doesn’t have to personally experience due to his wealth. Is there a some other way to evaluate a normative discussion of social, business, and educational policy than by bringing values to bear?
      - throwaway13337 3y ago
        You're unfortunately correct that value creation and extraction are not always hand in hand. I also agree that monopoly conditions are bad and a huge problem right now. So probably our values align here. To take Thiel's fellowship charitably, though, these people are both creating and extracting value. And programs like these might have a better track record of identifying, and accelerating these creators that somehow give the market what it wants. Markets aren't perfect but I'm not aware of a better system. I am not sure Thiel's intention about talking so openly about monopoly, but I feel that effects that might align with your values are: 1. That people (hopefully regulators) are more aware of the value extracting monopolies. I know Thiel has talked very publicly against a few tech giants he doesn't like. 2. That people (hopefully creators) think more about creating tiny monopolies. The most common problem I see business creators make is that they attack a red ocean. So maybe he calls them monopolies, but I just use the term 'niche'. They're certainly a more likely way to succeed and they create value for other people. Anyway, Thiel is also playing political games of 'us versus them' and trying not to look charitably on the others. I felt like your comment continued that sort of damaging perspective. I don't think only sociopaths are succeeding - in fact, our world progress is proof that cooperation and trust work very well even against cynics that exploit it, overall. I also think that most people (including those that are vocal) really want good things for humanity. They might even have similar thoughts on how to get there. But the way they talk about it and their identity group seems to get in the way. We just get stuck in narratives that focus on differences. When we do that, we don't move the other party to our side, they just dig their heels in. And we probably agree with them much more than we think.
insane_dreamer 3y ago
That's not necessarily surprising; Waterloo is known for being very strong in CS, Harvard not necessarily. I'd take a CMU or Harvey Mudd CS grad over a Harvard one any day.

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago

I’ll face issue for this, because I’m sure the same people I’m about to complain about post here. I went to a google campus for an automotive liaison trip when working at a BIG3… some smart people for sure, but a lot of kids that could barely tie their pointy elf shoes let alone had any common sense about things outside of programming. Like… You are working on an automotive program and you have no idea which parts under the painted part are suspension? You don’t know what the transmission actually does? Guys, I just need this car backed out and the other one brought in, this isn’t concerning, you and you, swap these. Yes, there is a reason that cars have so many parts. … it was really eye opening. Good programmers, but holy hell I wouldn’t want to be stuck on an island with any of them.

linehedonist 3y ago
Lots of people have no interest in cars, just like lots of people have no interest in computers. Not sure that says anything about the people’s intelligence. Plus on a desert island you’ll probably have bigger problems than what a transmission does.
- SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
  Ok. If you want to excuse one example that’s fine. I was there, and those people put all their points into programming.

CPLX 3y ago

Now you're ready for the next observation. Which is to really understand the mentality of people from those institutions. Imagine if you took these two premises as true: 1) Harvard is the most selective and high level educational institution in the world, it's full of the absolute smartest people alive. That's how I ended up here. 2) Now that I am actually here, it appears that there's a bunch of people at Harvard that honestly aren't all that bright. You then have to pick from one of two obvious conclusions: A) Maybe Harvard actually isn't full of the smartest people in the world. B) Wow, since we know the dumbest person at Harvard is smarter than the smartest person at a state school, people who went to state school must be total fucking idiots. Guess which worldview your average Harvard student tends to gravitate towards?

ldjkfkdsjnv 3y ago
Yeah, a lot of them also have a really strong network of ivy league grads, and really only associate in those circles. What happens is they develop all sorts of ideas about "outsiders". You see this in NYC a lot. The network is where alot of the success comes from. I'm also not doubting that many Harvard students are exceptional students

demondemidi 3y ago

That’s what the legacy rulings are about. But there will always be stupid rich failsons and faildaughters that magically find an acceptance letter and a new facility with their last name on it.

silverquiet 3y ago

I have to say that the last decade or so of my life has been one confirmation after another that the parable of “The Emperor’s New Clothes” is about the most accurate bit of folk sociological wisdom that exists.

consumer451 3y ago

Sounds like a great reason to end legacy admissions.